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	<title>Comments on: A Few Common Pro-CAM Arguments and Some Possible Responses</title>
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	<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/</link>
	<description>A Vet Takes a Science-Based Look at Complementary and Alternative Medicine</description>
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		<title>By: Woo U.&#8211;CAVM as Continuing Education for Veterinarians &#171; The SkeptVet Blog</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-174</link>
		<dc:creator>Woo U.&#8211;CAVM as Continuing Education for Veterinarians &#171; The SkeptVet Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 01:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-174</guid>
		<description>[...] of CAM have balked at supporting the groups extreme approach. The AHVMA lecture sounds like a &#8220;health care choice&#8221; gambit to avoid federal laws regulating medical therapies and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of CAM have balked at supporting the groups extreme approach. The AHVMA lecture sounds like a &#8220;health care choice&#8221; gambit to avoid federal laws regulating medical therapies and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: skeptvet</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-135</link>
		<dc:creator>skeptvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 15:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-135</guid>
		<description>Sorry I haven&#039;t reponded or posted lately. Been on vacation! :-)

The legal questions are allways tough ones because, as Bartimaeus points out,the law is a political thing. While I consider certain CAM approaches to be tantamount to malpractice, I recognize that if enough people believe in them the law will never take this position, even if it is the most rational one. The political pendulum of woo swings just like all the others, and we seem to be in what one colleague of mine called a Golden Age of Woo, in the sense that the law is veery friendly to non-evidence-based practices, and there is widespread cultural suspcion of science. I imagine this will eventually swing back the other way, and all I can do is hope to nudge it a bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry I haven&#8217;t reponded or posted lately. Been on vacation! <img src='http://skeptvet.com/Blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The legal questions are allways tough ones because, as Bartimaeus points out,the law is a political thing. While I consider certain CAM approaches to be tantamount to malpractice, I recognize that if enough people believe in them the law will never take this position, even if it is the most rational one. The political pendulum of woo swings just like all the others, and we seem to be in what one colleague of mine called a Golden Age of Woo, in the sense that the law is veery friendly to non-evidence-based practices, and there is widespread cultural suspcion of science. I imagine this will eventually swing back the other way, and all I can do is hope to nudge it a bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Bartimaeus</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-134</link>
		<dc:creator>Bartimaeus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-134</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it is unstoppable, but it will take a lot of work and time to get first the vet schools to start teaching more critical thinking and critical analysis of veterinary treatments, and then working on the state boards as well. 
I also think that as the perceived emotional value of pets goes up, more lawyers may be interested in legal action against vets who use ineffective treatments. Advertising standards complaints may have some effect as well, as recently demonstrated in the BCA case against Simon Singh and the Australian Vaccination Network shows.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/08/07/the-avn-is-reaping-what-they-sowed/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it is unstoppable, but it will take a lot of work and time to get first the vet schools to start teaching more critical thinking and critical analysis of veterinary treatments, and then working on the state boards as well.<br />
I also think that as the perceived emotional value of pets goes up, more lawyers may be interested in legal action against vets who use ineffective treatments. Advertising standards complaints may have some effect as well, as recently demonstrated in the BCA case against Simon Singh and the Australian Vaccination Network shows.</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/08/07/the-avn-is-reaping-what-they-sowed/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/08/07/the-avn-is-reaping-what-they-sowed/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rita</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Rita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-133</guid>
		<description>This is &quot;Skeptico&quot; on the formation of the British Veterinary Voodo Society - this is the legal position in the UK:

&quot;The thing to remember is that unlike human medicine, the law states that only qualified vets are allowed to treat animals. This is because animals can&#039;t choose for themselves. Therefore while the law leaves people free to go to unqualified quacks if they like, they can&#039;t do that with their animals.

This creates a paradox. If vets were prohibited from offering SCAM treatments such as homeopathy, there would be no legal way for animal owners to access them. A responsible regulatory authority would simply say tough, we don&#039;t allow non-evidence-based treatments to be used, and that&#039;s that. However, the British Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons’ (RCVS) attitude is that it&#039;s better for owners to be able to take their animal to a vet who will provide Supplementary, Complementary and Alternative Medicine (SCAM) treatment, than risk them going (illegally) to a lay quack. Consequently, the RCVS sanctions homeopathy.&quot;

-hence the growth of veterinary practices where woo of all types is on offer.................... is this unstoppable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is &#8220;Skeptico&#8221; on the formation of the British Veterinary Voodo Society &#8211; this is the legal position in the UK:</p>
<p>&#8220;The thing to remember is that unlike human medicine, the law states that only qualified vets are allowed to treat animals. This is because animals can&#8217;t choose for themselves. Therefore while the law leaves people free to go to unqualified quacks if they like, they can&#8217;t do that with their animals.</p>
<p>This creates a paradox. If vets were prohibited from offering SCAM treatments such as homeopathy, there would be no legal way for animal owners to access them. A responsible regulatory authority would simply say tough, we don&#8217;t allow non-evidence-based treatments to be used, and that&#8217;s that. However, the British Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons’ (RCVS) attitude is that it&#8217;s better for owners to be able to take their animal to a vet who will provide Supplementary, Complementary and Alternative Medicine (SCAM) treatment, than risk them going (illegally) to a lay quack. Consequently, the RCVS sanctions homeopathy.&#8221;</p>
<p>-hence the growth of veterinary practices where woo of all types is on offer&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. is this unstoppable?</p>
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		<title>By: Rita</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Rita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 20:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-131</guid>
		<description>&quot;In Arizona (also notorious for licensing homeopaths and naturopaths) the State veterinary board is appointed by the Governor and consists of 5 licensed veterinarians and 3 members of the public, one of which must be from the livestock industry&quot;.
What fun it would be if human doctors were ruled by a board which obligatorily included someone dedicated to killing them!
Thanks for your reply - I must say it doesn&#039;t sound too optimistic but let us hope for better things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In Arizona (also notorious for licensing homeopaths and naturopaths) the State veterinary board is appointed by the Governor and consists of 5 licensed veterinarians and 3 members of the public, one of which must be from the livestock industry&#8221;.<br />
What fun it would be if human doctors were ruled by a board which obligatorily included someone dedicated to killing them!<br />
Thanks for your reply &#8211; I must say it doesn&#8217;t sound too optimistic but let us hope for better things.</p>
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		<title>By: Bartimaeus</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Bartimaeus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 02:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-129</guid>
		<description>Rita; The problem with state veterinary boards is that they are at the mercy of state government to some extent. In Arizona (also notorious for licensing homeopaths and naturopaths) the State veterinary board is appointed by the Governor and consists of 5 licensed veterinarians and 3 members of the public, one of which must be from the livestock industry.

The political aspect of the board makes them reluctant to take on alternative medicine, and the definition of Veterinary medicine is this;
&quot; &quot;Veterinary medicine&quot; includes veterianry surgery, obstetrics, dentistry, acupuncture, manipulation and all other branches or specialties of veterinary medicine and the prescribing, administering or dispensing of drugs and medications for veterinary purposes.&quot;

At least in Arizona, that allows veterinarians to use almost anything that looks like it might be &quot;medicine&quot; (there are a few things under the definition of &quot;malpractice&quot; and &quot;gross incompetence&quot; that would make me nervous if I was thinking about using woo, but that is just me.
It seems as if someone in state government specifically wanted to leave the door open for things like acupuncture, herbal medicine, and chiropractic. The board is not all that well staffed and the board members are not paid much, so I think their main concerns are protecting public health and the economic interests of the livestock industries. I have seen two local vets loose their licenses in the lat 10 years or so-one was an alcoholic who could not count to two any more and the other seemed unable to follow sterile technique or safe anesthetic protocols. They both caused much more mayhem than they should have before they lost their licenses and frankly made a lot of the CAM practitioners around here look good.

Anyway, to make a long story short, it is going to take a lot of work and a long time to change attitudes enough for the state boards to start looking at most CAM more skeptically. Most state boards rely on the veterinary schools to define what veterinary medicine is, and as long as places like CSU can get people to pay thousands for courses in acupuncture, etc, things are not going to change much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rita; The problem with state veterinary boards is that they are at the mercy of state government to some extent. In Arizona (also notorious for licensing homeopaths and naturopaths) the State veterinary board is appointed by the Governor and consists of 5 licensed veterinarians and 3 members of the public, one of which must be from the livestock industry.</p>
<p>The political aspect of the board makes them reluctant to take on alternative medicine, and the definition of Veterinary medicine is this;<br />
&#8221; &#8220;Veterinary medicine&#8221; includes veterianry surgery, obstetrics, dentistry, acupuncture, manipulation and all other branches or specialties of veterinary medicine and the prescribing, administering or dispensing of drugs and medications for veterinary purposes.&#8221;</p>
<p>At least in Arizona, that allows veterinarians to use almost anything that looks like it might be &#8220;medicine&#8221; (there are a few things under the definition of &#8220;malpractice&#8221; and &#8220;gross incompetence&#8221; that would make me nervous if I was thinking about using woo, but that is just me.<br />
It seems as if someone in state government specifically wanted to leave the door open for things like acupuncture, herbal medicine, and chiropractic. The board is not all that well staffed and the board members are not paid much, so I think their main concerns are protecting public health and the economic interests of the livestock industries. I have seen two local vets loose their licenses in the lat 10 years or so-one was an alcoholic who could not count to two any more and the other seemed unable to follow sterile technique or safe anesthetic protocols. They both caused much more mayhem than they should have before they lost their licenses and frankly made a lot of the CAM practitioners around here look good.</p>
<p>Anyway, to make a long story short, it is going to take a lot of work and a long time to change attitudes enough for the state boards to start looking at most CAM more skeptically. Most state boards rely on the veterinary schools to define what veterinary medicine is, and as long as places like CSU can get people to pay thousands for courses in acupuncture, etc, things are not going to change much.</p>
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		<title>By: Rita</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>Rita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 20:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-128</guid>
		<description>Thinking a bit about the predicament of vets (and human-type doctors, come to that) in dealing with woo-demanding clients - surely it&#039;s down to the governing body of a profession to be upfront about what will and will not be dealt with by qualified practitioners of the profession?  Clients are entitled to expect another level of responsibility from the learned professions - that&#039;s why they&#039;re professions and not trades.  How would a comparison with the Law play out?.
One cannot expect individual vets to fight the good fight the whole time when the governing body has not come down with a pretty unequivocal ruling on what&#039;s what.
What is the ruling on woo in the US veterinary profession?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thinking a bit about the predicament of vets (and human-type doctors, come to that) in dealing with woo-demanding clients &#8211; surely it&#8217;s down to the governing body of a profession to be upfront about what will and will not be dealt with by qualified practitioners of the profession?  Clients are entitled to expect another level of responsibility from the learned professions &#8211; that&#8217;s why they&#8217;re professions and not trades.  How would a comparison with the Law play out?.<br />
One cannot expect individual vets to fight the good fight the whole time when the governing body has not come down with a pretty unequivocal ruling on what&#8217;s what.<br />
What is the ruling on woo in the US veterinary profession?</p>
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		<title>By: v.t.</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>v.t.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-126</guid>
		<description>gwen, that&#039;s how I felt as well.  What struck me as negligent was the mere mention she went on VIN to see how pancreatitis was being treated.  Since pancreatitis is a severe condition with the potential to turn into liver disease or even triaditis, I&#039;d think she&#039;d be more educated on the subject and follow the hard and fast rules of treatment.  There&#039;s NO room for nonsense CAVM speculation for such a condition (or any other condition requiring aggressive treatment for that matter).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gwen, that&#8217;s how I felt as well.  What struck me as negligent was the mere mention she went on VIN to see how pancreatitis was being treated.  Since pancreatitis is a severe condition with the potential to turn into liver disease or even triaditis, I&#8217;d think she&#8217;d be more educated on the subject and follow the hard and fast rules of treatment.  There&#8217;s NO room for nonsense CAVM speculation for such a condition (or any other condition requiring aggressive treatment for that matter).</p>
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		<title>By: skeptvet</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>skeptvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-124</guid>
		<description>Yes, as I always emphasize, stories like that are the kinds of tragedies that show us CAM isn&#039;t merely silly and harmless but really can lead to great, and often unecessary, suffering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, as I always emphasize, stories like that are the kinds of tragedies that show us CAM isn&#8217;t merely silly and harmless but really can lead to great, and often unecessary, suffering.</p>
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		<title>By: gwen</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/07/a-few-common-pro-cam-arguments-and-soem-possibel-responses/comment-page-1/#comment-121</link>
		<dc:creator>gwen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=109#comment-121</guid>
		<description>When I read V.T.&#039;s post about a vet using CAM to (not)treat pancreatitis, it made me soooo angry. As a nurse, I know how painful and life threatening it is. I can only hope that this vet comes down with pancreatitis and uses CAM for him/herself. I&#039;ll bet it won&#039;t last for more than an hour, before they beg for morphine or fentanyl and other &#039;coventional&#039; treatments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read V.T.&#8217;s post about a vet using CAM to (not)treat pancreatitis, it made me soooo angry. As a nurse, I know how painful and life threatening it is. I can only hope that this vet comes down with pancreatitis and uses CAM for him/herself. I&#8217;ll bet it won&#8217;t last for more than an hour, before they beg for morphine or fentanyl and other &#8216;coventional&#8217; treatments.</p>
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