Comments on: Nutritional and Health benefits of Organically Grown Food? http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/08/nutritional-and-health-benefits-of-organically-grown-food/ A Vet Takes a Science-Based Look at Complementary and Alternative Medicine Wed, 16 May 2012 00:17:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: v.t. http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/08/nutritional-and-health-benefits-of-organically-grown-food/comment-page-1/#comment-149 v.t. Sat, 15 Aug 2009 15:11:40 +0000 http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=126#comment-149 Penn & Teller did a stint on this recently, you could find a video on youtube. Pretty interesting when organic buffs couldn't tell the difference between an organic piece of fruit or veggie to a non-organic one, and most all of the subjects said the non-organic tasted so much better. Penn & Teller did a stint on this recently, you could find a video on youtube. Pretty interesting when organic buffs couldn’t tell the difference between an organic piece of fruit or veggie to a non-organic one, and most all of the subjects said the non-organic tasted so much better.

]]> By: skeptvet http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/08/nutritional-and-health-benefits-of-organically-grown-food/comment-page-1/#comment-146 skeptvet Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:54:26 +0000 http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=126#comment-146 Certainly int he U.S "organic" is seen as synonymous with "healthy" by many people, so it's a convenient thing to use in advertising a food. It's not quite as meaningless as "natural," but it still doesn't really say anything useful about the quality of the food itself, even if it might have relevance to deciding what kind of agriculture on wishes to support. Certainly int he U.S “organic” is seen as synonymous with “healthy” by many people, so it’s a convenient thing to use in advertising a food. It’s not quite as meaningless as “natural,” but it still doesn’t really say anything useful about the quality of the food itself, even if it might have relevance to deciding what kind of agriculture on wishes to support.

]]> By: Rita http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/08/nutritional-and-health-benefits-of-organically-grown-food/comment-page-1/#comment-145 Rita Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:35:37 +0000 http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=126#comment-145 I don't think this is the place to go into all the hunting stuff - needless to say, I have heard all these points discussed back and forth a million times - my point about people taking responsiblity for capital punishment was not really on topic, either, so I apologise for going off the very interesting thread, which was the quality of so-called organic foods - is this made a selling point in pet foods in the US? it seems to be here (Spain). I don’t think this is the place to go into all the hunting stuff – needless to say, I have heard all these points discussed back and forth a million times – my point about people taking responsiblity for capital punishment was not really on topic, either, so I apologise for going off the very interesting thread, which was the quality of so-called organic foods – is this made a selling point in pet foods in the US? it seems to be here (Spain).

]]> By: Bartimaeus http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/08/nutritional-and-health-benefits-of-organically-grown-food/comment-page-1/#comment-144 Bartimaeus Thu, 13 Aug 2009 00:56:43 +0000 http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=126#comment-144 Interesting comment Rita, there are some community gardens to varying degrees in the US, but no regulatory requirement to provide them anywhere as far as I know. There does seem to be an increasingly large number of people who do have space to grow a garden and/or raise some backyard livestock in many parts of the US. http://www.dolittler.com/2009/05/23/The-REAL-%E2%80%9Comnivore%E2%80%99s-dilemma%E2%80%9D-notes-on-my-first-slaughter.html In my experience (admittedly a limited sample size) most people who are involved in raising and caring for animals on a relatively small scale, people doing research involving animals and even most hunters are not as "hardened" as you might think, although I'm not sure how to measure that. and often have a much more profound respect and understanding of the animals that they do kill than many urban/suburban dwellers that have little or no contact with live animals other than a pet. As to the suggestion of cognitive dissonance, while that may play a part for some people, "I think you'll find that it's a bit more complicated than that" to quote Ben Goldacre. I never grew up hunting, and was opposed to hunting for many years, but after a lot of time spent in the wilds observing wildlife, and reading Aldo Leopold's writings about this part of the world, I do not think all hunting is bad or unethical anymore. To Quote Leopold; " I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of It's wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of it's deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. "So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf's job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washig the future into the sea. "We all strive for safety, prosperity, comfort, long life, and dullness. The deer strives with his supple legs, the cowman with trap and poison, the statesman with pen, the most of us with machines, votes, and dollars, but it all comes to the same thing: peace in our time. A measure of success in this is all well enough, and perhaps is a requisite to objective thinking, but too much safety seems to yield only danger in the long run. Perhaps this is behind Thoureau's dictum: In wildness is the salvation of the world. Perhaps this is the hidden meaning in the howl of the wolf, long known among mountains, but seldom perceived among men." I would hate to see the elk disappear, and hope for the return of the wolf, but until then, we humans will need to hunt some of the elk. I think my point in all this is that there are many answers to some of the same questions. While some choose to avoid meat completely, others may take different approaches to the issue by raising or hunting their own meat. These too can be positive solutions, even if they are not the choice you would make. Interesting comment Rita, there are some community gardens to varying degrees in the US, but no regulatory requirement to provide them anywhere as far as I know. There does seem to be an increasingly large number of people who do have space to grow a garden and/or raise some backyard livestock in many parts of the US.
http://www.dolittler.com/2009/05/23/The-REAL-%E2%80%9Comnivore%E2%80%99s-dilemma%E2%80%9D-notes-on-my-first-slaughter.html

In my experience (admittedly a limited sample size) most people who are involved in raising and caring for animals on a relatively small scale, people doing research involving animals and even most hunters are not as “hardened” as you might think, although I’m not sure how to measure that. and often have a much more profound respect and understanding of the animals that they do kill than many urban/suburban dwellers that have little or no contact with live animals other than a pet.

As to the suggestion of cognitive dissonance, while that may play a part for some people, “I think you’ll find that it’s a bit more complicated than that” to quote Ben Goldacre.

I never grew up hunting, and was opposed to hunting for many years, but after a lot of time spent in the wilds observing wildlife, and reading Aldo Leopold’s writings about this part of the world, I do not think all hunting is bad or unethical anymore. To Quote Leopold;

” I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of It’s wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of it’s deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades.
“So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf’s job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washig the future into the sea.
“We all strive for safety, prosperity, comfort, long life, and dullness. The deer strives with his supple legs, the cowman with trap and poison, the statesman with pen, the most of us with machines, votes, and dollars, but it all comes to the same thing: peace in our time. A measure of success in this is all well enough, and perhaps is a requisite to objective thinking, but too much safety seems to yield only danger in the long run. Perhaps this is behind Thoureau’s dictum: In wildness is the salvation of the world. Perhaps this is the hidden meaning in the howl of the wolf, long known among mountains, but seldom perceived among men.”

I would hate to see the elk disappear, and hope for the return of the wolf, but until then, we humans will need to hunt some of the elk. I think my point in all this is that there are many answers to some of the same questions. While some choose to avoid meat completely, others may take different approaches to the issue by raising or hunting their own meat. These too can be positive solutions, even if they are not the choice you would make.

]]> By: Rita http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/08/nutritional-and-health-benefits-of-organically-grown-food/comment-page-1/#comment-141 Rita Wed, 12 Aug 2009 07:43:25 +0000 http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=126#comment-141 "Under the acts a local authority is required to maintain an "adequate provision" of land, usually a large allotment field which can then be subdivided into allotment gardens for individual residents at a low rent. ....... The council has a duty to provide sufficient allotments to meet demand. The total income from allotments was £2.61 million and total expenditure was £8.44 million in 1997". From the Wikipedia allotment article - Note that councils in the UK MUST provide allotments - so in principle, everyone can grow at least some of their own veggies in whatever style they wish. Is there similar provision in the US, I wonder? I agree with skeptvet that there is an intuitive appeal about organic veg. which may well not stand up to scientific analysis, and that many other factors come into play. But one of those factors is shelf life and transport (an ecological problem in itsef). Fruit and veg do deteriorate (do they not?) with time away from source - so local/home grown stuff (which probably has more chance of being "organic"), could measure up better than"shop-bought" just on those grounds, regardless of method of cultivation....... I can't comment on the animal front, because I'm vegan, for purely ethical reasons. However, I was interested to see Bartimaeus' quote: "One of my ranch-raised classmates said once during a discussion that no one should eat something they were not willing to kill themselves". This used to be advanced, very properly, IMO, in arguments against capital punishment - anyone who thinks CP is correct sould be prepared to have the role of executioner allocated by ballot to any member of the community - themselves, their children, aged aunt, whatever. The problem, as the use of this argument for dispatching one's own meat shows, is that people - or at least some people, (and what makes the difference?!) get incredibly hardened incredibly quickly.........more cognitive dissonance! Rita “Under the acts a local authority is required to maintain an “adequate provision” of land, usually a large allotment field which can then be subdivided into allotment gardens for individual residents at a low rent. ……. The council has a duty to provide sufficient allotments to meet demand. The total income from allotments was £2.61 million and total expenditure was £8.44 million in 1997″.
From the Wikipedia allotment article – Note that councils in the UK MUST provide allotments – so in principle, everyone can grow at least some of their own veggies in whatever style they wish. Is there similar provision in the US, I wonder?
I agree with skeptvet that there is an intuitive appeal about organic veg. which may well not stand up to scientific analysis, and that many other factors come into play. But one of those factors is shelf life and transport (an ecological problem in itsef). Fruit and veg do deteriorate (do they not?) with time away from source – so local/home grown stuff (which probably has more chance of being “organic”), could measure up better than”shop-bought” just on those grounds, regardless of method of cultivation…….
I can’t comment on the animal front, because I’m vegan, for purely ethical reasons. However, I was interested to see Bartimaeus’ quote: “One of my ranch-raised classmates said once during a discussion that no one should eat something they were not willing to kill themselves”.
This used to be advanced, very properly, IMO, in arguments against capital punishment – anyone who thinks CP is correct sould be prepared to have the role of executioner allocated by ballot to any member of the community – themselves, their children, aged aunt, whatever. The problem, as the use of this argument for dispatching one’s own meat shows, is that people – or at least some people, (and what makes the difference?!) get incredibly hardened incredibly quickly………more cognitive dissonance!
Rita

]]> By: Bartimaeus http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2009/08/nutritional-and-health-benefits-of-organically-grown-food/comment-page-1/#comment-139 Bartimaeus Tue, 11 Aug 2009 02:47:49 +0000 http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=126#comment-139 It does seem that any evidence for increased nutritional benefits for organic food is just about non-existent. I agree though that there may be other benefits to less intensive agriculture. These include, when at their best, reduced use of non-renewable resources (debatable with some models of distribution), more humane conditions for livestock, and better habitat for wildlife with smaller, more varied fields and pastures. I keep chickens for eggs, and use the manure to fertilize the garden. I also eat less store bought meat by applying for population control (antlerless) Elk hunts. The local elk population is probably too high, probably because most of their natural predators (wolves and grizzlies) have been locally extinct for 80-90 years. Some may not agree with that choice, but at least I know how that animal lived, and am willing to take personal responsibility for the way it died. One of my ranch-raised classmates said once during a discussion that no one should eat something they were not willing to kill themselves. I think that that type of personal relationship with the animals people raise and a concern and responsibility for the animal's welfare, even if the end result is steaks in the freezer is lost in factory farming. It does seem that any evidence for increased nutritional benefits for organic food is just about non-existent. I agree though that there may be other benefits to less intensive agriculture. These include, when at their best, reduced use of non-renewable resources (debatable with some models of distribution), more humane conditions for livestock, and better habitat for wildlife with smaller, more varied fields and pastures. I keep chickens for eggs, and use the manure to fertilize the garden. I also eat less store bought meat by applying for population control (antlerless) Elk hunts. The local elk population is probably too high, probably because most of their natural predators (wolves and grizzlies) have been locally extinct for 80-90 years. Some may not agree with that choice, but at least I know how that animal lived, and am willing to take personal responsibility for the way it died. One of my ranch-raised classmates said once during a discussion that no one should eat something they were not willing to kill themselves. I think that that type of personal relationship with the animals people raise and a concern and responsibility for the animal’s welfare, even if the end result is steaks in the freezer is lost in factory farming.

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