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	<title>Comments on: The Ethics of Honesty in Veterinarian/Client Relationships</title>
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	<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/</link>
	<description>A Vet Takes a Science-Based Look at Complementary and Alternative Medicine</description>
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		<title>By: Body Condition and Temperature &#124;</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator>Body Condition and Temperature &#124;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-400</guid>
		<description>[...] The Ethics of Honesty in Veterinarian/Client Relationships « The &#8230;   addthis_url = &#039;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsandpeople.com%2Fdog-behavior%2Fbody-condition-and-temperature&#039;; addthis_title = &#039;Body+Condition+and+Temperature&#039;; addthis_pub = &#039;&#039;; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Ethics of Honesty in Veterinarian/Client Relationships « The &#8230;   addthis_url = &#39;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogsandpeople.com%2Fdog-behavior%2Fbody-condition-and-temperature&#39;; addthis_title = &#39;Body+Condition+and+Temperature&#39;; addthis_pub = &#39;&#39;; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: art malernee dvm</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-397</link>
		<dc:creator>art malernee dvm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-397</guid>
		<description>communication is difficult for me. My reply post got rejected so I posted it on sidewiki if anyone wants to read my rejected reply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>communication is difficult for me. My reply post got rejected so I posted it on sidewiki if anyone wants to read my rejected reply.</p>
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		<title>By: skeptvet</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-396</link>
		<dc:creator>skeptvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-396</guid>
		<description>Again, I think your perspective is unrealistic and excessively pessimistic. Yes, a treatment made up out of nothing but magical thinking (Bach flower essence, homeopathy, chiropractic) is very unlikely to work. However, even most of these are not directly harmful, so I don&#039;t see a sound basis for your belief that harm is more likely than not without thorough RCT testing.

Most of the therapies you would label &quot;unproven&quot; are not made up willy nilly but extrapolated from established knowledge of physiology, pharmacology and so on. If you read the section of Hill&#039;s Criteria, you should realize that clinical trial evidence is only part of establishing the truth about an intervention.  If one has established biologic plausibility, coherence with established knowledge, in vitro and animal model evidence, and pilot clinical trial evidence, then one is a lot closer to a justifiable claim of efficacy. Sure, one may still turn out to be wrong sometimes, but these elements to establishing safety and efficacy still have meaning. 

And as you point out, there are situations in which action is necessary despite imperfect knowledge, We must of course be honest with our clients about the limitations of our knowledge and evidence, but I think claiming we have to identify all therapies as &quot;investigational&quot; that havn&#039;t been supported by perfect clinical trial evidence is inappropriate and comes perilously close to fulfilling the cliche that Dr. Messonier and others market about evidence-based medicine being exclusibely about RCTs and thus essentially useless in the verterinary domain where we rarely have this level of evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, I think your perspective is unrealistic and excessively pessimistic. Yes, a treatment made up out of nothing but magical thinking (Bach flower essence, homeopathy, chiropractic) is very unlikely to work. However, even most of these are not directly harmful, so I don&#8217;t see a sound basis for your belief that harm is more likely than not without thorough RCT testing.</p>
<p>Most of the therapies you would label &#8220;unproven&#8221; are not made up willy nilly but extrapolated from established knowledge of physiology, pharmacology and so on. If you read the section of Hill&#8217;s Criteria, you should realize that clinical trial evidence is only part of establishing the truth about an intervention.  If one has established biologic plausibility, coherence with established knowledge, in vitro and animal model evidence, and pilot clinical trial evidence, then one is a lot closer to a justifiable claim of efficacy. Sure, one may still turn out to be wrong sometimes, but these elements to establishing safety and efficacy still have meaning. </p>
<p>And as you point out, there are situations in which action is necessary despite imperfect knowledge, We must of course be honest with our clients about the limitations of our knowledge and evidence, but I think claiming we have to identify all therapies as &#8220;investigational&#8221; that havn&#8217;t been supported by perfect clinical trial evidence is inappropriate and comes perilously close to fulfilling the cliche that Dr. Messonier and others market about evidence-based medicine being exclusibely about RCTs and thus essentially useless in the verterinary domain where we rarely have this level of evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: art malernee dvm</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-395</link>
		<dc:creator>art malernee dvm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-395</guid>
		<description>I know you seemed to take the most extreme view, sometimes used by CAM proponents&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

Proven vs. Unproven Treatment

 Unproven treatment relies on relative efficacy and safety that has not been shown in controlled peer-reviewed clinical trials.

If a proven treatment is not available (which is often the case in veterinary medicine), or if the treatment not work for the individual patient (also more common then we would like), i see nothing wrong with trying an unproven therapy, as long as the doctor tells the client that using unproven medical care is more likely to harm than help. I think that unproven care should be called investigational medical care when the drug company or the doctor is trying it.   When the FDA measures multi million dollar drug studies submitted for approval even then after spending millions only about one out of five pass the mustard. Studys show that expert review cannot be trusted so you cannot rely on the standard of care either. Using unproven medical care is like playing the lottery. Some win but most loose. The odds are against you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know you seemed to take the most extreme view, sometimes used by CAM proponents&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</p>
<p>Proven vs. Unproven Treatment</p>
<p> Unproven treatment relies on relative efficacy and safety that has not been shown in controlled peer-reviewed clinical trials.</p>
<p>If a proven treatment is not available (which is often the case in veterinary medicine), or if the treatment not work for the individual patient (also more common then we would like), i see nothing wrong with trying an unproven therapy, as long as the doctor tells the client that using unproven medical care is more likely to harm than help. I think that unproven care should be called investigational medical care when the drug company or the doctor is trying it.   When the FDA measures multi million dollar drug studies submitted for approval even then after spending millions only about one out of five pass the mustard. Studys show that expert review cannot be trusted so you cannot rely on the standard of care either. Using unproven medical care is like playing the lottery. Some win but most loose. The odds are against you.</p>
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		<title>By: skeptvet</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-394</link>
		<dc:creator>skeptvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-394</guid>
		<description>&quot;I have found independent studys that show most of a vets take home income in the USA is from bogus or questionable medicine&quot;
I&#039;d like to see the studies you refer to, because I find this very hard to believe. But we&#039;ve disagreed before, on vetsurgeon.org, about what &quot;evidence-based&quot; means, and I know you seemed to take the most extreme view, sometimes used by CAM proponents to mock science-based medicine, that without a solid RCT no practice is every justified. If that&#039;s the approach here, then I still have to disagree. But perhaps you have something else in mind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I have found independent studys that show most of a vets take home income in the USA is from bogus or questionable medicine&#8221;<br />
I&#8217;d like to see the studies you refer to, because I find this very hard to believe. But we&#8217;ve disagreed before, on vetsurgeon.org, about what &#8220;evidence-based&#8221; means, and I know you seemed to take the most extreme view, sometimes used by CAM proponents to mock science-based medicine, that without a solid RCT no practice is every justified. If that&#8217;s the approach here, then I still have to disagree. But perhaps you have something else in mind?</p>
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		<title>By: art malernee dvm</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-388</link>
		<dc:creator>art malernee dvm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-388</guid>
		<description>Well, I don’t think it’s often a choice between practicing questionable or bogus medicien and going out of business. &gt;&gt;&gt;

Thats the only sentence of your last post I may not agree with . It depends on how do you measure the word &quot;often&quot;? I have found independent studys that show most of a vets take home income in the USA is from bogus or questionable medicine.  That income must be replaced with real medicine income some how. Until the profession can figure out how do do that, those whistle blowers who lead the way may starve before the standard of care and the laws get changed. I do not see a lot of general human practitioners practicing evidence based medicine and making a good living either.  I think it is more what the  population is used to paying for a service that affects their willingness to pay.  Of course,  it is also affected by the affluence of the society we live in. So science based doctors can hope the smart people have all the money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I don’t think it’s often a choice between practicing questionable or bogus medicien and going out of business. &gt;&gt;&gt;</p>
<p>Thats the only sentence of your last post I may not agree with . It depends on how do you measure the word &#8220;often&#8221;? I have found independent studys that show most of a vets take home income in the USA is from bogus or questionable medicine.  That income must be replaced with real medicine income some how. Until the profession can figure out how do do that, those whistle blowers who lead the way may starve before the standard of care and the laws get changed. I do not see a lot of general human practitioners practicing evidence based medicine and making a good living either.  I think it is more what the  population is used to paying for a service that affects their willingness to pay.  Of course,  it is also affected by the affluence of the society we live in. So science based doctors can hope the smart people have all the money.</p>
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		<title>By: Onesie with bone, vet, x-ray, ribcage, veterinarian, pet, animal &#124; Pet Animals</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-387</link>
		<dc:creator>Onesie with bone, vet, x-ray, ribcage, veterinarian, pet, animal &#124; Pet Animals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 05:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-387</guid>
		<description>[...] The Ethics of Honesty in Veterinarian/Client Relationships « The &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Ethics of Honesty in Veterinarian/Client Relationships « The &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: skeptvet</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-385</link>
		<dc:creator>skeptvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-385</guid>
		<description>Well, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s often a choice between practicing questionable or bogus medicien and going out of business. While some clinets may leave if they can&#039;t find a particular CAM therapy they want, CAM is still a relatively small (though sadly growing) part of the veterinary market. And good, scientific medicine is still ultimately good for business because it works better, and regardless of philosophy people will go where they get results. 

I&#039;ve had clients who came to me with a preconception that woo is what their pets needed, and when we talked about the evidence and their choice, they chose to stay and go with science-based medicine. When their pets got better, that had a big impact on their perceptions of CAM and conventional medicine. 

Granted, everyone has to make a lviing, buy supplies, pay rent, pay employees, and both CAM and mainstream medical providers have to pay enough attention to the business end to make these things possible. But for most vets, it&#039;s not so key a factor tat I think it dictates teir choices of therapeutic approaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s often a choice between practicing questionable or bogus medicien and going out of business. While some clinets may leave if they can&#8217;t find a particular CAM therapy they want, CAM is still a relatively small (though sadly growing) part of the veterinary market. And good, scientific medicine is still ultimately good for business because it works better, and regardless of philosophy people will go where they get results. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had clients who came to me with a preconception that woo is what their pets needed, and when we talked about the evidence and their choice, they chose to stay and go with science-based medicine. When their pets got better, that had a big impact on their perceptions of CAM and conventional medicine. </p>
<p>Granted, everyone has to make a lviing, buy supplies, pay rent, pay employees, and both CAM and mainstream medical providers have to pay enough attention to the business end to make these things possible. But for most vets, it&#8217;s not so key a factor tat I think it dictates teir choices of therapeutic approaches.</p>
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		<title>By: art malernee dvm</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-383</link>
		<dc:creator>art malernee dvm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-383</guid>
		<description>Scientific medical care must be cost effective not only to the client but the veterinarian must get paid to practice it. Refusing to practice what the FDA defines as Fraud does no good if the loss of income puts you out of business.  

 FDA definition of fraud quoted in Sept/Oct 93 NCAHF Bulletin Board: The deceptive promotion, advertisement, distribution or sale of articles, intended for human or animal use, that are represented as being effective to diagnose, prevent, cure, treat or mitigate disease (or other conditions), or provide a beneficial effect on health, but which have not been scientifically proven safe and effective for such purposes. Such practices may be deliberate, or done without adequate knowledge or understanding of the article. (Quoted from a letter from M L Frazier - Director, State Information Branch 6/18/93).

art malernee dvm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scientific medical care must be cost effective not only to the client but the veterinarian must get paid to practice it. Refusing to practice what the FDA defines as Fraud does no good if the loss of income puts you out of business.  </p>
<p> FDA definition of fraud quoted in Sept/Oct 93 NCAHF Bulletin Board: The deceptive promotion, advertisement, distribution or sale of articles, intended for human or animal use, that are represented as being effective to diagnose, prevent, cure, treat or mitigate disease (or other conditions), or provide a beneficial effect on health, but which have not been scientifically proven safe and effective for such purposes. Such practices may be deliberate, or done without adequate knowledge or understanding of the article. (Quoted from a letter from M L Frazier &#8211; Director, State Information Branch 6/18/93).</p>
<p>art malernee dvm</p>
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		<title>By: skeptvet</title>
		<link>http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/the-ethics-of-honesty-in-veterinarianclient-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-372</link>
		<dc:creator>skeptvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 02:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptvet.com/Blog/?p=302#comment-372</guid>
		<description>Jackrabbit,

Thanks for you comment and support. It seems I spend a lot of time saying things people don&#039;t particularly want to hear, so I always appreciate it when what I say resonates with someone else&#039;s understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jackrabbit,</p>
<p>Thanks for you comment and support. It seems I spend a lot of time saying things people don&#8217;t particularly want to hear, so I always appreciate it when what I say resonates with someone else&#8217;s understanding.</p>
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