I once referred briefly to Dr. Andrew Jones in a previous post as an example of one of the warning signs of quackery, the claim of secret knowledge that mainstream science and medicine doesn’t want you to have. Of course, his marketing activities include lots of other characteristic features of alternative medicine propaganda, including unfounded accusations about the harm done by conventional medicine and unproven or outright false claims about the safety and efficacy of alternative methods. In many ways, he is a fine example of many warning signs of quackery.
It turns out, the veterinary medical licensing authorities in Canada, where Dr. Jones lives, have more backbone than most of those in the U.S., and for years they have been warning Dr. Jones that unfairly denigrating his colleagues and making false claims is unprofessional and incompatible with the standards licensed veterinarians are expected to uphold. He repeatedly claimed he would abide by the marketing and advertising guidelines all other veterinarians are subject to in his jurisdiction, and repeated broke those commitments. Finally, the British Columbia Veterinary Medical Association (BCVMA) imposed significant fines, and Dr. Jones has chosen to give up his license so he can market his veterinary self-help products without interference.
His supporters, of course, are trying to paint him as a victim, but the evidence is clear that he is yet another alternative guru with a messiah complex making money not only off peddling ineffective or unproven remedies but discouraging pet owners from seeking real medical care for their pets.
The details of the proceedings against Dr. Jones are included in the BCVMA reports available here:
BCVMA Investigating Committee Report
College of Veterinarians Council Final Decision
In 2003, 2004, and 2005, Dr. Jones was asked to stop using advertising language for his practice and products that implied he provided better care or was less concerned about money than other veterinarians. He advertised his own services as “affordable” and “superior” compared to other vets and said things like:
“You will find us honest, convenient, affordable, and above all caring”
“We use only the best materials and labs”
Some of this language was relatively innocuous, and his supporters have made a point of this to suggest that there is no real issue but competition and professional jealousy here. However, it should be obvious why advertising oneself as better than ones colleagues, especially with no evidence but that of one’s own ego to support such a claim, is both offensive and unprofessional. In any case, the only sanction imposed on Dr. Jones was to stop using such language, which he repeatedly agreed in writing to do. As we shall see, he not only broke these promises but engaged in far more egregiously inappropriate behavior.
Dr. Jones went on to form “Dr. Jones Inner Circle Forum,” a web-based service which charged pet owners a subscription fee to receive his “secret” knowledge and wisdom that he repeatedly claimed would make most visits to the veterinarian unnecessary. On this forum, he repeatedly accused conventional veterinarians of naked greed and a lack of interest in the well-being of their patients:
1) P.P.S My goal is to give you the most up to date, unbiased dog and cat health information to allow YOU to keep your pet in top health. I want you to be an empowered pet owner, and You will be one as part of my exclusive Dr. Andrew Jones’ Inner Circle. [I can't help notice that hucksters and quacks have a great fondness for CAPITAL LETERS. I wonder why that is…]
2) At the end of the day it boils down to money. If the public are not lining vets pockets with unnecessary visits, purchasing processed foods from which vets also take a percentage, that’s quite a reduction in income.
3) I am “positive” that many ‘conventional” veterinarians think that Veterinary Secrets Revealed is a bunch of “hocus pocus” and should be shut down.
What does this mean?
It means that other veterinarians are upset about my website, ebook, and Complete Home Study Course.
After all, I’m showing people how to treat their own pets and save money on Vet bills [at least some of the money they save, of course, will go to Dr. Jones]
4) You should check out my Complete Home Study Multimedia Course. I guarantee that you will treat your pet’s illness and ailments confidently, competently and for less than it would cost if you relied exclusively on professional Veterinary services.
5) This issue: The 6th Secret – The 6th key to extending your pet’s life is knowing when to AVOID you Veterinarian.
In his posts on the Inner Circle forum, Dr. Jones repeatedly claimed alternative or “holistic” methods were safer and more effective than scientific medicine and that the only reason that conventional veterinarians object to them is that the “Secret Society of Veterinarians” was afraid they would lose money if people learned how to keep their pets healthy without professional medical care. When challenged for proof of his claims, Dr. Jones resorted to the time-worn and thoroughly meaningless arguments of longevity, popularity, and personal experience or anecdote:
‘There is no proof…’
But how do you think that most animals in the world are treated? It’s with natural medicine…
Most people in India or China can’t afford to even see a vet or buy medication.
They use herbs, acupressure, massage, supplements, homeopathic treatments.
The animals get better, because the treatments work.
I have seen thousands of pets recover with home remedies.
That is proof.
As if we are seriously expected to believe that the cats and dogs in the third world who do not have access to real veterinary care are healthier than the pets in the developed world. Just like the people who are too poor to have access to science-based medicine are healthier than those of us in the developed world, despite the minor problems of high infant mortality, low life-expectancy, and rampant infectious and parasitic diseases most of us have never seen, I suppose? Arrant nonsense.
The list of absurd, untrue, and unprofessional accusations and claims, all made in an effort to sell books, videos, and subscriptions to the “secrets” of his “Inner Circle,” is extensive. Here are just a few examples:
1) I firmly believe in holistic medicine for pets.
We are killing them with the most of the terrible dog foods on the market along with pesticides contained in flea and tick medications and also medicines the vets want you to purchase. [a letter supposedly from a reader that Dr. Jones reprinted because it reflected his views]
2) “…you should be leery of any LARGE pet food manufacturer- they re[sic] in the business to profit first”
3) HERBAL THERAPY. A number of herbs are used in diabetes. These include Gymnema, Bitter Melon, Fenugreek, and Ginseng. These herbs can be found in specific diabetic herbal combinations. Ginseng is the most effective of these herbs. It has been shown to lower blood sugar in people, and is believed to do the same in animals. The dose is 30 mg per lb of body weight twice daily of the dried herb, or 1 drop per pound of body weight twice daily of the tincture.[implying people can treat their pet's diabetes alone, with unproven herbal remedies, is especially egregious because it will undoubtedly lead to suffering and death for animals with this serious disease who are not properly treated]
4) Pay Close Attention – today, I’m going to show you why conventional veterinary medicine is harming your pet and step-by-step what you must do to prevent it.
“Regular” veterinary care has lost it’s [sic] effectiveness over the years, and in some cases is causing illness in our pets.
5) The entire Pet Health Industry has a vested interest in discrediting alternative medicines which can safely, naturally and effectively allow pet owners to care for thei pets at home. [a nice example of the conspiracy-theory aspect of quackery]
6) Most veterinarians just choose to ignore the research because either they still feel the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks, or that they don’t want to lose income from giving booster shots to all those animals each year.
Apart from such false and unproven accusations and claims, Dr. Jones engaged in inappropriate hucksterism, offering “money-back guarantees” and “cures” when such claims can never be anything but lies in medicine.
Despite all of this, the licensing board did not intend to drive Dr. Jones out of practice. He was fined substantially, both for the numerous violations of ethics laws and, even more importantly, for acknowledging in writing that he understood and intended to abide by them and then reneging on these promises in order to continue to profit from unethical and deceitful advertising. However, when he offered to give up his license, the board specifically indicated it did not consider this an appropriate or necessary punishment for the violations. Dr. Jones decision to give up his license is entirely his own.
Unfortunately, it is likely he will continue to profit from spreading lies and misinformation about the veterinary profession, and from offering dangerous advice and unproven or false treatments. He will have to walk a fine line since without a license he cannot legally practice veterinary medicine, but of course the benefits of a free society are great enough that he must be allowed to spout his nonsense as long as he does not cross the line into liable, slander, or the practice of medicine. Sadly, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he ends up in the U.S. where regulatory authorities have proven far less willing to challenge such snake oil salesman taking advantage of pet owners and profiting from fear and ignorance.
it’s bad enough that the internet is rife with charlatans and snake oil hucksters who prey on desperate pet owners, but when licensed veterinarians engage in crass commercialism and guerrilla marketing tactics, it’s *shameful.*
i always assume that doctors like this can’t make a living practicing medicine, so they try to make a quick buck on the internet. maybe they don’t realize that they crossed the line between professional and sleazy.
what do you think of this website, skeptvet?
dr. dressler
http://www.dogcancerblog.com
skeptvet said: “imposed significant fines, and Dr. Jones has chosen to give up his license so he can market his veterinary self-help products without interference.”
this reminds me of tom lonsdale, the author of “raw meaty bones” (http://www.rawmeatybones.com), who was expelled from the australian veterinary association. he’s lauded by his followers (rabid rawfers) as a junk pet food whistleblower.
Mr. Tom Lonsdale and the Australian Veterinary Association
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA20040513042
Mr. Tom Lonsdale’s AVA membership cancelled – Winning respect for the Profession
“The committee found that by making the allegations Tom Lonsdale had seriously breached the AVA Code of Professional Conduct to an extent that warranted cancellation of his membership. Consequently regardless of suggestions otherwise that have appeared in the media and elsewhere, Tom Lonsdale’s membership was cancelled because of unfounded allegations of scientific and consumer fraud that he made against you, his veterinary colleagues.”
broken link: http://www.ava.com.au/avj/private/0407/04070384.pdf?PHPSESSID=863e2587cf
Tom Lonsdale’s membership was cancelled because of unfounded allegations of scientific and consumer fraud that he made against you, his veterinary colleagues.”
broken link: http://www.ava.com.au/avj/private/0407/04070384.pdf?PHPSESSID=863e2587cf>>>>
ellen, is there a non broken link so I can see if its Tom or those who control the AVA that are making unfounded allegations. I have see Tom and commercial dog food loving ausie vets go at it and saw little science to go along with either side of the raw barf debate. Tom seemed to treat vets on the other side of the debate better than they were treating him.
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
dr. malernee – i couldn’t retrieve the old web page using internet archive and a keyword search of the ava.com.au website wasn’t successful either. sorry. btw, the quote was taken directly from the original website, word-for-word. maybe the webmaster could help you retrieve the information (http://www.ava.com.au/help#info).
australian veterinary journal, may 2004
http://snipr.com/1hkc8f
Cancellation of Memberships
“The AVA Board received complaints from AVA members about breaches of the AVA Code of Professional Conduct for the Members of the Australian Veterinary Association by two members: Dr Sven Temmingh and Dr Tom Lonsdale. Both members reside in NSW so the Board requested advice from the NSW Division. The Division established a complaints committee of peers to investigate both complaints. The complaints committee made a recommendation, based on their investigation of the matters, that the Code had been breached by both veterinarians. The NSW Division accepted the findings of the committee and made a recommendation to the AVA Board that the memberships of both veterinarians be cancelled. The Board invited Drs Temmingh and Lonsdale to appear before the Board before a decision was made and both declined the invitation. The Board subsequently accepted the recommendation to cancel the membership of Dr Sven Temmingh and of Dr Tom Lonsdale. They have both been informed and their names removed from the Register of Members.”
ellen
when a veterinarian, such as the holistic vet cited below, is disciplined by a state veterinary board for incompetence and negligence, how many strikes do they get before their license to practice medicine is permanently revoked?
Tobin, Stephen, Veterinarian/Lic. #: 001935/Meriden
Petition No2007-1031-047-024 Licensure in other states: Unknown Memorandum of Decision – August 25, 2010 -18 mo. probation; coursework in medical records: pain management: anesthesia; restriction of practice: no surgery Type of case: Incompetence/Negligence
http://www.ct.gov/dph/cwp/view.asp?a=3143&q=435274&dphNav_GID=1830
http://www.dir.ct.gov/dph/hcquality/Physician/047-VETERINARIAN/047-001935/20010919047027.pdf
http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/communications/rar/pdf/qu_3_10.pdf
dr. malernee – i couldn’t retrieve the old web page using internet archive and a keyword search of the ava.com.au website wasn’t successful either.>>>
If a vet organizations/regulatory agency are going to make public statements reaching conclusions about licensed vets they need to provide a non password protected online documentation link that led them to that conclusion and allow those vets found guilty to provide online rebuttal. Expert opinion cannot be trusted. The public needs to see evidence from both sides. If a vet gets fined by the state board because he did not give a oral vitamin supplement to a asymptomatic dog on a balanced diet the public should be able to see that online next to the online notice from the board that the vet was fined so the public can make their own conclusion who is the quack the vet who got fined for not giving a vitamin suppliment or the vet the fla board hired to give expert opinion not using the vitamin supplement should result in a fine.
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
dr. malernee, in the case of the holistic/homeopathic vet in connecticut who was fined by the state board and restricted from practicing surgery, the dog, hannah, died due to veterinary incompetence and negligence. the documentation is online (see my 11/19 post), so both sides are represented.
prior to hannah’s death, following what should have been routine spay surgery, the vet confirmed the presence of a mass the size of a tennis ball in her abdomen. he prescribed a homeopathic remedy, which was ineffective. i’m surprised the board didn’t consider that negligent. wouldn’t a first step be to perform an x-ray or ultrasound to determine the nature of the mass prior to surgery??
http://www.dir.ct.gov/dph/hcquality/Physician/047-VETERINARIAN/047-001935/20010919047027.pdf
“The respondent performed a physical exam and, by palpating H.S.’ abdomen, found the mass. He prescribed Pulsatilla, a homeopathic medication, 1 milliliter for three days. After three days of treatment, H.S. failed to improve. The owner called and reported to respondent that the mass had not decreased and scheduled an appointment for spaying. The owner directed respondent to remove the mass…”
btw, the dog’s owner, who appears to be into “natural rearing” and CAVM (http://bonniebrierwesties.com/NR.html), has a web page which provides additional insight into the malpractice case:
remembering hannah
http://bonniebrierwesties.com/hannah1.html
“Her AKC registered name was Holyrood’s Remember Me, but Hannah, a daughter of my Ch. Bonnie Brier James Butler, CD TD, was the sweetest girl and she has been gone for two years now. It took that many years to follow the proper channels for justice to be served. She died because of Dr. Stephen Tobin, a veterinarian in Meriden, Connecticut.”
when a veterinarian, such as the holistic vet cited below, is disciplined by a state veterinary board for incompetence and negligence, how many strikes do they get before their license to practice medicine is permanently revoked?>>>>
Holistic is just a marketing term. I find the term offensive. This guy who send home the pet still under anes the same day of the surgery should not get anymore strikes.
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
he prescribed a homeopathic remedy, which was ineffective. i’m surprised the board didn’t consider that negligent. >>>>
I do not see why governments still let doctors sell medicine with no medicine in it. I keep asking thinking that some country has already figured out a way to stop it. You would think a country like ours with all the government regulation could at least stop people from selling medication that had no medicine in it.
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
ellen,
if you have VIN on your computer there is a thread called raw meaty bones Tom was on that had six hundred plus post. I just found the thread today. It looks like the vinners are saying Tom was kicked off VIN for copy-write violation but I cannot find anything about that except Tom asking if he could quote a vinner. Here is the last attack of Tom on vin after they kicked him off. The quote about americans i think is about a girl on vin who does not like male day old chick put through a meat grinder to kill them. She is making the claim they should be put male one day old chicks under anes gas first before they are put in the meat grinder. From the part of the vin thread i read i cannot find any documentation to support giving tom the boot. If you find something Tom Wrote that supports giving him the boot please post it. Remember that a lot of people doing scientific studies also believe in god so you just cannot muzzle people for being unscientific.
Here is the VIN quote calling Tom a pig.
**This quote has been removed by the site owner at the request of the management of VIN. Copyright law applies to websites and the owner of the site owns the content, so conversations from other sites cannot be reproduced here without the express permission of the individuals and site owners.**
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
Thank you so much for this information. I subscribe to a rescue group chat line, which has some Dr. Jones supporters. They have been trying to get people to sign a petition to “prevent Dr. Jones from losing his license, because the animals will suffer.”
I was able to provide a link to this blog and got some positive feedback from several people.
I’m glad the information was helpful. It is unforuntely easy for people like Dr. Jones to make themselves seem noble, altruistic, and misunderstood when the truth is more complex and less flattering.
I just stumbled upon this blog while searching for a way to help Andrew Jones get his license back. It’s probably a waste of time for me to try and defend this man in this venue, but I just can’t let this talk fly without comment.
Skepvet, you have made as many unfair and untrue comments as you accuse Dr. Jones of making, and I’ll cite a few with my comment after each:
‘Teabags on a reddened eye, activated charcoal for an upset stomach’ are two of Jones’ remedies for those conditions. You reply with ‘oh, but what if the animal has glaucoma?’, and ‘what if the dog has an intestinal obstruction, what good will those do?’
Come on, what are the percentages here? If I have heartburn and I pop an Alka-Seltzer, well, what good will that do if the heartburn is caused by esophageal cancer? Well, in my 68 years, I’ve popped more than a few Alka-Seltzer as a first treatment and sought more serious remedies if the heartburn persisted. It’s called making an informed choice, and I maintain my right to make it.
“Dr. Jones makes the allegation that he is better than his colleagues”. Well, Skepvet, I never saw any evidence of that kind of arrogance in his writings, but what if he did? Some people are better at their profession than others. I’m a retired college professor and you can bet your bippy that I was a better teacher than some of my colleagues and that is borne out not by me, but by thousands of student evaluations. Some of my colleagues had monumental egos – unbounded and largely unfounded, or they just didn’t know the subject matter, or they knew it and simply couldn’t teach. I would imagine that veterinarians have the same efficacy dispersion, and that for every Andrew Jones that has his license pulled, there are two very wealthy doctors who should have their licenses revoked but never do. Maybe they stay under the radar, or maybe they pay the required homage to the egos of the licensing authorities and to their respected peers, I don’t know – but you might.
“Dr Jones is making money with his ‘Secrets and Lies’ and he markets all sorts of snake-oil remedies”. I’m paraphrasing, I know, but there may be a modicum of truth to this. Since his license was revoked, Andrew has cranked up his marketing threefold, but again, so what? Personally, I think he’s just trying to survive since the gurus have nullified his years of education and thousands of animals successfully treated by conventional veterinary practices. Moreover, one doesn’t have to buy his products – there are always cheaper alternatives – like teabags and activated charcoal. Why can’t the ‘Powers That Be’ put aside their powers and their egos and their offended sensibilities and let the consumers decide whether or not to ignore this man? We have functioning brains, honest we do!
I have but one pet – a 6-year-old Himalayan male beauty called Magic. Every month or two, he would have bouts of uncontrolled vomiting, and after many, many anguished trips to the vet with his treatment of prednisolone and famotadine and Baytril and his “most likely” diagnosis of cholangeal hepatitis and many, many thousands of my retirement dollars, I tried another approach. After much reading and research, and Andrew Jones was only one of many sources, I suspected IBD and I eliminated all wheat, corn, and soy from Magic’s diet. Wow, even a year later, no more vomiting. Magic for Magic! I still take him to the same vet, and I opt for an unconventional approach only after I research everything thoroughly. Isn’t that what you professionals want – an informed consumer? And can’t that information be gleaned from multiple and diverse sources?
Most caring pet owners are capable of separating the chicanery from the potentially helpful if given the right information, free from all snobbery and personal bias. I never met the man, but I think Andrew Jones is a genuinely nice guy. Do I advocate following everything he says? Nooooo! I can cherrypick what might help and what might hurt as easily as you cherrypicked the snippets of his writings that were so objectionable. I also think we Americans (and Canadians and Australians) have solid reasons to fear the influence wielded by Big Pharma and Big Oil and Big Tobacco and yes, Big Pet Food – on many professions, including veterinary practice. I think you should employ your influence and knowledge not to ‘pile on’ a man like Andrew Jones, but to support his right to disagree and dissent and even help him get his license (which he earned) back.
All this said, Skepvet, I really like your website and I think that more professionals should follow your lead. We should have Skepprofessor and Skepdoctor and skeplawyer and many others, if for no other reason than to promote civil and informative dialogue. But be careful what you say lest some of the veterinary powers become incensed and go after your license. Not because they should, but because they can. If you cannot find it in your heart and mind to speak up for someone like Andrew, then at least watch your own back and remember the words of Rev. Martin Niemoller ‘I didn’t speak up ……. and then they came for me.’
Tom
Tom,
I appreciate your thoughtful comments. You raise a lot of important questions. Some I won’t address since they are really outside of the focus of this blog. I suspect, for example, a general suspicion of the “powers” and government regulation, which is a big and contentious political issue, but not really in the territory of this blog. I see perfectly sound reasons for the sanctions that led Dr. Jones to surrender his license (which, I have to remind everyone, he did voluntarily because he did not want to comply with the rules the authorities had set for all the veterinarians in his region), but of course that doesn’t mean such actions are always jusitified or in the public’s best interests.
As for the example of treating red eyes at home and your analogy with over-the-counter antacids, I have to point out that treating your own symptoms is quite different from treating those of a companion animal who can’t speak for itself. I routinely see animals blinded by glaucoma who are brought in only after they start running into things, because owners did not notice the symptoms of what in humans is a searingly painful condition. You would probably know the difference between regular heartburn and a bleeding duodenal ulcer in yourself, but in reality pet owners often are not able to distinguish mild from serious medicla problems in their pets, partly due to not knowing what to look for, and partly because their pets can’t articulate the nature of their symptoms. So I don’t agree that Dr. Jones’ advice in such an example is as benign as you think it is.
As for exactly what Dr. Jones has said that led to his trouble with the authorities, it is detailed in my post and the official documents I provided links to. I think there is no question that one way he makes money is by falsely accusing other veterinarians of greed and medical incompetance, and I think that is wrong and deserves to be sanctioned.
You seem to take a caveat emptor approach in general, and again this is connected with larger political ideological questions. But history shows pretty clearly that the “medical anarchism” of the days before doctors were lciensed and regulated is not good for the public. People are simply not able to make free and fully informed choices about healthcare because 1) they lack relevant knowledge and information, 2) they are constrained by the urgency and emotional nature of the need (i.e. demand is severely inelastic), and 3) by the time they realize they have been cheated, great and irreperable harm has often been done. It’s not a question of arrogantly assuming people are stupid, but of recognizing that we can’t all be experts in everything and that leaving professionals free to sell us ineffecvtive or harmful services is not in our best interests. If I choose an incopetant lawyer with great marketing skills and end up unjustly imprisoned, sure I’m free not to use that lawyer again or recommend him to my friends, but I don’t get that prison time back. What works for luxury goods doesn’t necessarily work for healthcare, so I think there is a need to safegurard the public against quackery no matter how smart or informed individual members of the public are. So I don’t think that Dr. Jones marketing style is just in bad taste, I think it is fundamentally harmful to pets and their owners.
As far as your experience with your cat, limited antigen diet trials are a standard therapy for GI symptoms in cats, so the fact that you had to stumble across that approach yourself rather than have it offerred to you by your veterinarian does not speak well for how you have been served as a pet owner. It does not, however, justify Dr. Jones conduct, which includes not only standard conventional advice such as that but lots of bogus recommendations that undoubtedly sound just as smart and reasonable to many pet owners. I presented examples of the unacceptable things Dr. Jones said or did not to cherrypick evidence but because the purpose was to show that he said or did enough things to justify the sanctions levied against him. Even if the rest of his advice was reasonable, the things he claimed or recommended that were inappropriate are still sufficient grounds in my opinion for my criticisms of him and the authorities’ actions.
I don’t at all see Dr. Jones as a victim of the evil establishment, as you and other supporters seem to want to characterize him. I see him as an egotistical, greedy marketer of often highly dubious services who would like to be thought of as an iconoclast and a persecuted visionary because such roles feed both his ego and his bank account.
Sorry to have to say this but you sound like one of the money grubbing people on the BCVMA. If all vets would be truthful?(ha) we would not have the number of dogs and cats that are dying from cancer, which has doubled in the last 10 years.
We have lost a 9 1/2 year old Golden Retriever from a tumor on the slpeen caused by the crap that was imported from China, and used in “store brand” dry dog food, along with ethoxyquin, BHA and BHT poisons that the FDA said should NOT be used in pet food because they all cause cancer. The pet food manufacturers argued that they “had to have them as preservatives” ( mainly because it was a whole lot cheaper and increased their bottom line). I know of at least 14 dogs who died the same way.
Feel free to provide some kind of evidence that splenic hemagiosarcoma is due to melamine, ethoxyquin, or any of the other substances you mentio. It’s easy to throw insults and make stuff up, but it doesn’t make anything you say true, nor does it have anything to do with Dr. Jones, who desrves the title “money grubbing” far more than most.
Why are vets so “scared” of Dr. Jones? Could he be on the right path?
Imagine one vet getting so many to “think” and get alternative options!!!
This article is so one sided, are you an expert, then provide the otherside as well.
Money grabbing: hmm wonder who you mean as I looked at my vet bills?
Not scared, disgusted. He lies and offers his opinions as if they were facts, and he fools people. This is not in the best interest of our pets or their owners, and I object to it on that basis.
As for the “other side,” Dr. Jones is perfectly capable of marketing his own point of view, as he has done aggressively for some time. My purpose here was to show how this marketing is really a scam, not to pretend that his version of thinsg is just as legitimate as anybody else’s, because it isn’t.
You sound like a very bitter Veterinarian. You, like the majority of Vets, think about your bottom line. Annual shots, which I’ve stopped on my dogs, are a real money maker. I read a report from an Veterinarian Immunologist who stated that annual shots were just that, a money maker. Once a dog has been given the shot, you don’t need to keep doing this year after year. You cannot make the immune system any more immune than it already is. Those words came from the expert. And his report stated that Vets know this. Ugh! So why then do they insist on giving shots every year? Money!!!!! And it’s not just shots, Vets are quick to put a dog on seizure medicine without first exploring why the seizure occured. In my dog’s case, I knew it was something he ingested. A 7-year old dog doesn’t just have a seizure out of no where. It would happen every now and then and always within a 3-hour window of eating. My vet said… No… it’s not food. B.S. I spent the whole day on the internet searching. It was Rosemary. Rosemary is known to cause seizures in people! Rosemary is now added to a lot of pet food and treats. That was my dog’s trigger. I now read labels and don’t buy anything with rosemary in it. And guess what? Four years later and my dog hasn’t had a seizure since. Imagine how many pets are on seizure medicine and being fed food that is the trigger for seizures. How horrific does that sound? A conventional Vet would prescribe medicine. A holistic Vet would explore the trigger. That’s the difference between you and Dr. Andrew Jones.
You clearly have a lot of anger, but you are atttacking a straw man of your own making, an image of who you think I am that you’ve invented inside your head.
1. I don’t vaccinate annually, and neither do any of the 25 vets in my practice. This is a tired old complaint by alternative practitioners that doesn’t reflect how most veterinarians respond to changes in research evidence. Sure, some vets may still follow this practice, but it is by no means the “mainstream” opinion. It is just a marketing toool for people like Dr. Jones to make themselves look better by telling lies about others.
2. It is amazing that you don’t mind Dr. Jones making a living by selling his “secrets” and misrepresenting the veterinary profession, but you somehow tink other vets are driven by greed! Ignorant propoganda which you’ve clearly swallowed whole.
3. Again, I know a lot of vets, and none of them have the cavalier approach to seizures you describe. Essential oils, including rosemary, have been reported to sometimes cause seizures in some individuals at some doses, but there is absolutely no evidence that the plant itself, or the tiny amounts in comemrcial food, cause seizures. You are making exactly the same kind of unwarranted assumptions about the cause of your dog’s seizures, and ignoring the complexity of the triggers and underlying causes of seizures, that you accuse vets of making. Without an appropriate workup, and sometimes even with one, you can’t know what caused them or why they stopped. Like Dr. Andrew, you are relying on your own individual observations, which thousands of years of history have shown not to be reliable in making medical judgements, and ignoring the need for real scientific evidence.
Making stuff up, even if it is stuff clients like to hear, is not good medicine, and lying about other veterinarians as a marketing strategy is not ethical. And your practice of ignoring what I actually say in favor of manufacturing an enemy who thinks and does what you imagine, so you can attack that enemy freely, makes your comment merely spiteful and pointless. Real debate requires actually listeninga nd considering what someone else says, and the ability to learn requires the ability to listen to what others say even when they disagree with you, and not to turn disagreements into personal attacks (especially when you know nothing about the person you are attacking!).
Jehovah created all of the real foods & spices for treating specific diseases. It is admirable that some vets as well as medical doctors are returning to the idea that real foods & spices are an alternative to the poisons that big pharmaceuticals invented to increase their profits and destroy their customers.
Many responders to your messages have noted that you are afraid to put your name out there to back up your statements and accusations against Dr. Andrew Jones. You justify your remarks by saying “you are relying on your own individual observations, which thousands of years of history have shown not to be reliable in making medical judgements, and ignoring the need for real scientific evidence.” However, you are ignoring hundreds of years of history of expensive pharmaceuticals that haven’t produced cures and which have caused patients as well as doctors to look to alternative medicine
This is the first time I have come across this blog, and after a goood look around I feel it is a bit of a joke. True, you have some decent and sound information, but it is mixed in with what sounds like alot of personal strife and ego. You attack and belittle anyone who does not conform to your ideas or criticizes anything you have said – the people responding to your blog! Dr Andrew Jones was my vet for a number of years, before he gave up his license, and I was extreemly happy and satisfied with his professionalism and ccare towards my animals. I had previously been with another vet in Nelson, for many years, who was far less satisfactory with results, care, and – in the long run – cost. I was very saddened to see Dr Jones loose his license and practice, I feel as though many local animals and owners have suffered as a result. With Dr Jones, we cured long standing issues, through alternative methods AND appropriate conventional veterinary medicine as needed. Issues that were costing a fortune and getting no results with the 100% conventional approach the previous vet has used. Masking symptoms and makking my ppet sicker and weaker in the long run.
As for Dr Tom Londsdale, I feel you were very quick to use him as another example of a terribly dangerous and unprofessional vet, in the end getting what he deserved. This was appauling to read, as I feel you do not have significant evidence of this at all – besides the fact the Australian Veterinary Association was not happy with him, and booted him out. Although I did not know Dr Londsdale personally, my vet in New Zealand (whom I worked with at his well respected clinic) became friends with him as a result of following his story. He was – and still is – very well respected in Veterinary circles both in Australia and New Zealand. I later read his book, and I can understand why it was so controversial, but I have since learned there iis a great deal of truth in it. No wonder he had so many death threats – serious ones, it was fairly big news in NZ 9 years ago.
I am not a vet, but I have spent years working with vets, reading the manuals and texts to inform myself as best as possible on my animals’ own physiology, as well as veterinary pharmacology and theraputics – I believe I owe that to my cats, dogs, and horses. The more I am informed, the better I can help them, and find a truely competent vet. I admit that although I was a very satified client of Dr Jones, when I first checked out his online business I was very put off. It is well marketed, so much so that it is too much for me, constant flashes and links to his products. I have come to realize that his information is still sound, and with the help of his computer/marketing savvy brother, he is ‘working it’. But really why not? I feel he is not putting dangerous information out there, he is saving people alot of money from Vet bills, but always advocates seeing the vet where neccessary. He has lost so much, I dont blame him for trying to make a living at this – I support him! I understand fully why his colleges would be upset – he is successful, and a threat to all the extra $ they get for apppointments and treatments that are not helping. I would never suggest someone to not see a vet if it is serious, and I dont believe he does either. I think he has alot of guts to do what he is doing – the simple and financially secure thing to do would be contiuing on in his practice and not going through all of this to help animals with chronic skin issues etc. His family would have been alot richer and safer, had he opted to just keep using those drugs that he knows are not really curing the problem.
It looks as though you really have it out for these guys, but who are you anyway? You are making all these accusations under what name? Annonymous!!! I feel that is pretty cheap and disrespectful, espescially as you are doing your best to tarnish the reputation of others. I would like to see you expose yourself, then stand behind your allegations – who knows, you may get more credit for being serious.
I am glad I was refered to this site, by someone I respect and trust greatly. Sad to see you are spending so much energy and time on dis-crediting Dr Jones and Dr Londsdale. I wish you the best, and hope you grow less bitter,
Zoe McGovern
Nelson, BC
I support Dr Andrew Jones!!! My beautiful black Persian was a victim of mainstream veterinary medicine last year…I will never know if he could have been saved…but IMHO, if I had known Dr Jones before a notorious local veterinary hospital ripped him out of my arms and euthanized him, him might very well be alive and well today and I wouldn’t have spent hundreds of dollars unnecessarily!!! Thank goodness I did meet Dr Jones and with his very knowledgeable alternative care, my other cat is still alive and thriving in better health than ever because of him!!! Shame on YOU for perpetuating these lies about Dr Jones. Come out from behind your anonymity and face reality…Big Pharma is not our friend…in veterinary medicine or human medicine…and neither are YOU!
I really find your blog quite upsetting… I agree with the other comments supporting Dr Jones.. There are many many natural remedies that are equal to if not better than conventional medicines. In fact some things are routinely given to dogs that have been withdrawn from Human use because of the dangerous side effects. The German medical profession routinely prescribe natural alternatives . Why you have to be so anti is very unfair, and abhorrent. More like large companies likely to lose revenue pulling strings on the veterinary regulatory body .. There is no profit in healthy animals…
“Real debate requires actually listeninga nd considering what someone else says, and the ability to learn requires the ability to listen to what others say even when they disagree with you, and not to turn disagreements into personal attacks”
(especially when you know nothing about the person you are attacking!).
I could not agree more, you should learn from your own words !!!
Try listening and learning from alternative or complimentary!
I think what has happen to Dr A Jones is disgusting and does your profession more harm than good.
I say if you don’t believe do what you are doing and leave others alone who believe in natural remedies rather than putting other drugs in their systems. Why do you care. it just irritate me when people go against the grain they get persecuted. leave the doctor alone.
Well put, ladies and gentlemen; those of you who mightily defend Dr. Andrew Jones! For years, I have been aware that in general, the mainstream medical community is suspect. Drs. are practicing medicine…wait! Practicing means one doesn’t have it perfected yet! I WILL NEVER accept conventional medical nor veterinary treatment or diagnosis blindly ever again. Big PHARMA has the vast majority in the array of medical and veterinary professions, as well as the general public at large, completely snowed!!! Big Pharma and its understudy, the FDA, are, in my opinion, Gadianton Robbers!!! Thankfully, there are individuals with. the ethics of wanting to live with their conscience, such as Dr. Jones, even at the cost of their livelihood. This blogger, is a dolt! Of course Dr. Jones is going to continue to try to make a living promoting his book. Wouldn’t you? DUH!!! You, blogger, talk a big talk, but the minute you sided with chemically medicating, you lose credibility…BIG TIME. Oh, and btw, the informed public is growing wiser. We are increasing on number. We are becoming less and less gullible and believing that doctors and vets are ‘GOD’. We question; we research online; we think things through, and then we act on OUR OWN JUDGMENT! We have our own agency to do so, after all. We are sick of the FDA. Speaking for myself, (though I suspect I’m not alone), when I learn the FDA has approved something, I choose to run in the opposing direction! TRUST YOUR GUT!!! I rest my case.
The truth matters. We may disagree about what it is, but the idea that somehow I shouldn’t say what I believe is true just because you don’t want to hear it is closed-minded and indefensible.
It amazes me that all of Dr. Jones’ supporters complain about my critizing him as if he were some kind of religious icon who should be immune from doubt. For a group of self-professed independant thinkers and mavericks, you sure don’t like other people having the nerve to doubt you or your heroes. And everyone assumes they know all about my practices as a vet and my motives as a person, even though none of you know anything about me. There is no substance, no factual argument, no research, no evidence here. All I see in these responses is personal attacks against a fantasy enemy you’ve made up in your heads, a cult of personality venerated the uncriticizable hero, and a paranoid conspiracy theory involving the government, the pharmaceutical industry, and any veterinarian who dares to say that some kinds of medicine work and others don’t.
It feels utterly embarrassing to read the comments from Jones’ blinded supporters. Such vitriol and judgment without basis or merit. On the other hand, their comments serve a purpose to show just how gullible, mad and religiously fanatic and that followers of quacks tend to be.
These are just the same old arguments, from both sides, that have been going on for years and years. It’s completely pointless because no one is going to convince someone from ‘the other side’. However as I’ve nothing better to do, here are my two cents worth, a couple of points I don’t think anyone has brought up yet:
The two things I find incredible about everyone who thinks vets are just in it for the money (the vast, huge salaries we know they all make):
1) If we were really only interested in money, we would never ever vaccinate! Or implement any other form of preventative health care – we certainly wouldn’t neuter. Imagine! The epidemics of parvo, distemper and lepto – so many animals needing drips and aggressive i.v. antibiotics! So much valuable, intensive nursing needed – the client’s bills would be huuuuge. And if we never neutered animals, within 10 years the amount of money we’d be making from emergency spays to remove pyos, and mammary strips…….ooooh £££ the riches!
I can promise you, anti-vet fanatics, the real money lies in treating the diseases that results from NOT vaccinating or implementing other conventional preventative healthcare.
2) Everyone seems to ignore the fact that animal life-expectancies, just as with human’s, keep on increasing. That is a fact. What exactly is the reason for this? I suppose it’s happening in SPITE of evil Big Pharma etc.
Just so we’re clear: I’m glad Dr Jones got struck off. He’s hardly the first vet to be interested in alternate and complementary therapies, but the way he’s treated his former colleagues in the profession is pretty disgusting. And since he is so against conventional medicine, I’m only surprised he didn’t disassociate himself from ties to The Evil Profession sooner.
HI… I will ALWAYS believe in Dr Jones. What he is doing is right! My dog uses his supplement and she is thriving. She NO longer has any shots…I got her as a rescue a few years ago. An 8yr old black lab, that had ear infections every year and she hasnt had an ear infection since I changed her diet and added his supplements to her diet..
Also, when I got her she had heart worms and I WOULD NOT go with arsenic injections.( In central Maine the treatment starts at $500.00 and it goes higher the further south you go) I figured out what to do myself. I found Chinese herbs and they worked and not just with her either. A friend’s dog in Colorado had heart worms and they used the Chinese herbs too…and guess what….free from heart worms too! I went to a new vet to have her re tested after a month of taking the herbs and the vet could have cared less that she was heart worm free after using the herbs… Gee… I wonder why! I will NEVER go back to her.
I had another black lab years ago ( over 20 yrs ago) and she had chronic skin problems and ear infections all her life. Oh ya…steroids were really a great treatment…just a cover up. Too bad we didnt have internet back then… DIET is the key…and you cant tell me vets didnt know that back then???? The sad part about this vet is that he is still practicing. I have heard of many other complaints about him.
Skep vet …you are truly pathetic and I think all the negative posts about Dr Jones are done by you. I dont know what YOUR problem is…BUT get your head out the sand pile!
It always amazes me how people who are so confident in themselves that they cannot imagine their interpretation of events being mistaken can also get so wound up at anyone else having the nerve to disagree with them. You are free to believe what you like, but thankfully others are free to disagree no matter how loudly and self-righteously you shout at them.
I would just like to say that Dr. Jones is only providing information that has been used as well as available for many, many years, but today’s world of medicine has made sure we are unaware of those holistic approaches that might actually work and save people money. (A generous amount) It is ridiculous that people spend so much time bashing one guy who may want to help people save their pets as well as their money. The money making for him is NOT guaranteed as it is for other vets.
What’s ridiculous is the conspiracy theory nonsense that the vast majority of veterinarians are suppressing cheap and effective therapies and that people like Dr. Jones are somehow selfless altruists just trying to help people. There isn’t a vet out there who would be doing what they do if they only cared about money and didn’t care about pets and people, because they could certainly make more money using their knowledge and skills in other ways. And the idea that because Dr. Jones makes his money by selling things through books and the internet he is somehow more noble than vets who make theirs by seeing patients in the clinic is equally ridiculous. Such conspiracy theories and complaints about money are just vacuous ecuses for not dealing with the real issues of how we determine which therapies really work and which don’t.
Hi there, I can appreciate your concern, but I find the approach of the article to be of a vicious nature. Also, after visiting Dr. Jones’ site, I have only noticed the normal/typical trend of own personal opinions displayed by many others in the field and advocacy for people who have hit the wall in dealing with their pets health conventionally. I did not see any discrediting of other vets. I won’t take sides, but I’ve had some experience throughout my life where I feel alternative or “folk-medicine” has helped where pharmaceutical and conventional/modern treatment has failed my pets. My family came from the “Old Country” in the 1920s. They/we always had pets (dogs and cats). We were generally poor so we only knew what we learned from the “old-country” (aka Cuba) and our pets usually lived a lot longer than the standard 15 years without common disorders like diabetes, obesity, thyroid issues, etc. Maybe your experience has been different? And that’s fine. I recently have had to rely on conventional veterinary medicine in rescuing a very sick cat from the local pound. I spent thousands of dollars at eight (that’s right
different conventional and honest vets (they all were recommended by trustworthy people). After a year of my miserable, malnutritioned cat only getting worse, losing weight, unable to keep food down, etc., I tried alternative methods out of desperation and my cat stopped all symptoms immediately (and this is without a vet, just my own intuition). I stopped all prescription food, vet visits, tests, x-rays, etc. and started with fresh whole poultry from my local supermarket and a pinch of sage on top of each meal – he’s on his 6th year of healthy digestion, sage no longer required. One time, I also spent a lot of money on getting him treated for a simple UTI by my very trusted conventional vet and I highly recommend him (Dr. Diaz in Brooklyn, NY) who genuinely cared for my cat and all of his patients. (People come from all over the tri-state-area to see him; yes he’s that good!) However, it was my personal TCM practitioner who gave me an herbal mixture to give my cat, it surprised me and I was skeptical at first (after all, she’s not a vet!); but, I had been back and forth with my cat to our vet for over a month and I was stressing poor kitty in doing so (which I feel contributed to him not healing), so I took a chance on my TCM practitioner’s little herbal mix and cured my cat in one week, for $5. However, this is just my lucky experience. I know that all vets are not out for the money, I know many, including a very close friend of mine, who genuinely care, even more than some owners! With that said, I have done my research and I do see that the typical vet has been trained by the pharmaceutical companies. I would not say that you are not knowledgeable in your profession, but calling someone a liar does not help you look reliable. Especially to people like myself who have turned to alternative methods and succeeded when conventional medicine has failed. I’m not blasting conventional medicine because it can save your pets life, but I don’t think a professional should behave in such a manner as this. Sorry.
Skeptvet,
I admire your passion for an evidence based approach to health care and animal welfare. Many of the comments here have been hijacked through promotion of this page on Dr Jones’ site.
Your point on animal pain is extremely important. While people are free to do what they want to themselves, animal pain and disease is difficult to recognise because they can’t express their feelings. This is the reason that the study of veterinary science is so complex and knowledge in this field doubles every five years. It is quite amazing how veterinarians are able to save and improve the quality of life of animals suffering from diseases ranging from cancer to fractured bones. Evidence based medicine has been the basis of these advancements. Alternative medicines when used instead of a properly diagnosed and evidence based approach can cause animal suffering.
Thanks for the support!