39 responses

  1. v.t.
    May 30, 2019

    Well, conversely, clients are continuously bombarded with their vet’s “I cannot diagnose effectively without additional tests” (for suspect disease) – so the client is left with two choices: forego additional testing due to costs, and maybe treat “as if” for less dollar amounts (or possibly miss a diagnosis where treatment could have been effective), or, spend an exorbitant amount of money for additional testing that may or may not conclude a diagnosis (then additional costs associated with treatment anyway).

    Likewise, many clinics are now suggesting/including many tests in their annual “wellness” exams, i.e., comprehensive/cbc/chemical profile/thyroid panel/ with or without other add-ons depending on the age of the pet, any suspicion or heading off of age-related disease, etc.

    Just another example, I had a vet who pushed MRI’s (at 600.00, thank you), instead of an ultrasound (at 200.00) where the ultrasound could have been the better diagnostic in many cases. Thankfully, this vet is no longer practicing at the clinic (although I fear for the next clinic she’s employed at).

    Add the costs of medicine, drugs, prescription food, it’s costing more for our pets than it is for ourselves (is $90.00 for a 17lb bag of Rx food really reasonable?!) Oops, getting off topic…

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      May 31, 2019

      Yes, many vets do not understand screening or diagnostic testing very well, and they tend to recommend tests that are not indicated because they fear being criticized or sued for not having run every imaginable test for every possible cause of a problem. The published clinical practice guidelines from AAHA and other sources, which vets are told describe the standard of care they should be expected to provide, almost always recommend extensive screening tests with no evidence for when they are useful and when they are not. The fear of “missing something” is always going to be greater than the fear of running unnecessary tests or of over diagnosis, but we have to at least try to explain to clinicians and pet owners why not doing a test is sometimes the better choice for the patient. An uphill battle, for sure!

      Reply

  2. L
    May 30, 2019

    “Defensive Medicine”
    Vets are being reported to the board of registration in veterinary medicine when crap happens.
    So I don’t blame them a bit for ordering every test possible to rule out. The consumer can always say no thank you.
    You want them to diagnose without doing a full evaluation, you want to take a chance and then you (the customer) threatens to sue when things don’t go well.

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      May 31, 2019

      I understand this anxiety, but I don’t think it justifies the inappropriate use of diagnostic tests. For one thing, if our testing does more harm than good for our patients, then it is unethical to ignore this just because we are afraid of vindictive litigation. Secondly, the VMB regulatory system is incredibly lax, and I have seen gross malpractice excused over and over again, so I doubt that choosing not to run a diagnostic test when there is good evidence that it is not indicated and when there has been an appropriate discussion about the subject with the owner is ever going to lead a vet to lose a case like this. The evidence in human medicine is absolutely clear that such practices raise costs and harm patients, and defensive medicine is, while psychologically understandable, ultimately not a legitimate justification.

      Reply

  3. v.t.
    May 30, 2019

    L, hope you weren’t commenting on my post? (and you do make a good point!)

    Personally, I’ve screened all my pets and will continue to do so when it is warranted (so many variables here), but maybe I’m fortunate enough to understand the pros/cons moreso than a pet owner who hasn’t worked in vet med and must rely on their vet’s ‘recommendations’.

    Reply

  4. L
    May 30, 2019

    @ v.t.
    No, of course not. I agree with your posts.
    I had a corgi, healthy as could be, other than rabies shots as required by law I avoided annual exams and such.
    Hemangiosarcoma struck at age 9, too late for any treatment options.
    I will always wonder if I had taken her to the vet more often we would have caught it sooner.
    I now err on the side of safety.

    At the end of the day it’s all a crapshoot.

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      May 31, 2019

      Well, “crapshoot” is going a bit far. There is a lot we don’t know about the value of specific screening tests because we do very little epidemiological research to identify the prevalence of specific diseases in specific populations and to identify over diagnosis when it occurs. The best we can do is be aware of the problem and, as always, try to cautiously interpret how the far greater evidence in human medicine might apply to our patients.

      Anecdotes, as always, cut both ways. I ultrasound my own dog for teaching purposes, found a lesion in the spleen, removed the spleen (it turned out to be a benign, clinically irrelevant lesion) and he died of hemangiosarcoma of the liver several years later. Doing the test and the surgery ultimately did not benefit him and, arguably, cause harm in the form of an unneeded surgery.

      Found exactly the same kind of lesion in a coworker’s dog in thee same way, followed in for two years and there was no change. Ultimately, he died of unrelated issues, In this case, the test caused only unneeded anxiety and followup testing, but at least we avoided the harm of an unnecessary surgery.

      My point is that we don’t know how many cases of over diagnosis there are until we systematically look for them, but our fears will always drive us to do more testing unless (and even if) we have clear evidence that specific tests shouldn’t be done. We have a responsibility to protect our patients by practicing science-based medicine as best we can, and that means not doing tests that don’t help just as much as it means not giving alternatives medicines that don’t work.

      Reply

  5. v.t.
    May 30, 2019

    L, if it’s any consolation, hemangiosarcoma is nasty, whatever you could have done may not have affected the outcome – I am so very sorry 🙁

    Reply

  6. v.t.
    May 31, 2019

    Skeptvet, thanks for the additional comments.

    I’m so sorry for your loss. I imagine you certainly must have had some suspicion of a potentially sinister problem going on that influenced your decision for surgery for your dog those years earlier. I hope you aren’t putting blame upon yourself for that decision.

    Reply

  7. Jen Robinson
    May 31, 2019

    Excellent article, thanks. I’ve often declined the vet-recommended routine bloods panel for dogs in apparent good health … they never seem to find anything. My physician doesn’t do routine blood work unless there’s a reason to expect high cholesterol or something. Is blood work among the screening procedures you have in mind?

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      June 2, 2019

      Yes, any diagnostic test run in a patient with no symptoms or indication of a problem is, by definition, a screening test. Bloodwork is probably the most common in vet med. For these tests to be worthwhile, there has to be good evidence of a reason toe run them. In humans, for example, we know people with certain characteristics (age, ethnicity, family history, etc.) are at higher than average risk for certain diseases, so screening for those diseases can make sense. Colon caner is an excellent example of screening proven to benefit more patients than it harms. However, without this data, “fishing expeditions” are rarely productive and can cause harm to patients.

      Reply

  8. Jazzlet
    June 1, 2019

    Thank you skeptvet for a concise, but comprehensive summary of the issues around screening.

    This is an area where there are a lot of questions that many patients/owners do not understand, partly because too many clinicians don’t understand the issues very well. This is especially so if the screening includes scanning like the ultra sound you mention skeptet, or an MRI. When Mr J was given an MRI as a result of a possible lump on one of his kidneys (found by palpation and ultimately benign) they found four or five other oddities that then had to be investigated, most were nothing important, one was a maligant tumour in his appendix that would have been difficult to diagnose acurately any other way, and that would very likely have killed him. In his case that one find probably saved his life, but the appendix cancer occurs at a rate of one in a million, most people would have the worry of the four or five strings of investigation for no gain. As you say we need more data for all of the screening we could do, and to have a better grasp of what that screening actually means in humans and in our pets.

    Reply

  9. art malernee
    June 2, 2019

    Yes, any diagnostic test run in a patient with no symptoms or indication of a problem is, by definition, a screening test. Bloodwork is probably the most common in vet med.>>>

    The annual exam I suspect is the most common screening test in my state.

    Reply

  10. Jen Robinson
    June 2, 2019

    I’m curious. To what extent is excessive screening the vet’s own decision, as opposed to something pushed by practice managers, franchise practices, and economic pressures?
    Relatedly, is there evidence that the annual checkup is worthwhile for young and middle aged, healthy pets (presuming an experienced and observant owner)?

    Reply

  11. art malernee dvm
    June 2, 2019

    I’m curious. To what extent is excessive screening the vet’s own decision>>>
    In the state of Florida the law now requires the pet to have been seen by the veterinarian yearly for a check up to maintain a doctor client patient relationship. Not sure how many states do this now. The change in the Florida regulation occurred on the books about 5 years ago.

    Reply

  12. L
    June 3, 2019

    My vet says “You can’t tell by just looking” and tends to recommend annual labs or bi-annual labs (every 2 years) especially for seniors.
    However if something else is going on either with the dog or the owner ($) at the time that takes priority, he understands.
    I think that’s why it helps to have a good relationship with your vet. You can negotiate if the vet doesn’t have something specific that he needs to rule out.

    Reply

  13. L
    June 5, 2019

    “As I understand it, evidence does not favor the annual checkup in human medicine”.

    That’s cause insurance companies don’t want to pay for it. I was told prior to my annual this year that I would not need any labs done prior to the visit, that health care was getting away from annual labs to keep cost down.

    So I cancelled my annual, lol. I can take my own BP at CVS, check my weight myself, etc.

    It’s not good for the doctor/patient relationship, in fact I may find a new doctor.

    Reply

  14. L
    June 5, 2019

    I bet the people that can afford boutique medicine are getting all the screening tests they need, lol
    https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-is-boutique-medicine-a-concierge-doctor-practice-2615093

    Reply

  15. art malernee dvm
    June 5, 2019

    for those who follow HH she had a post yesterday called “too many test”
    https://www.skepdoc.info/too-many-tests/
    where she talks about annual exams and other testing.

    Reply

  16. Elizabeth A. Bergmann
    July 11, 2019

    I am wondering what the opinion is for screening electrocardiograms in light of the DCM scare with some cases being possibly related to grain free and legume heavy diets? If a dog has no outward symptoms of DCM and is no longer on a grain free diet, do we consider the extra measure of screening that dog with an echo? A dog may have DCM in the early stages with no outward signs..Some people are also getting Taurine blood levels as well…

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      July 13, 2019

      An electrocardiogram looks for abnormal heart rhythms, not DCM per se, and would not be an appropriate screening test.

      An echo and taurine levels are recommended for dogs in which there is a concern, but again since the number of cases is VERY small in terms of how many dogs are eating grain-free diets, most of these tests will be negative. I still think they are worth doing in dogs eating the diets so far identified by the FDA or in high-risk breeds (e.g. golden retrievrs), but the testing costs several hundred dollars depending on where you live (both tests together are over $700 in my area), and the echo may not be readily available in places where there are not a lot of cardiologists practicing, so given the uncertainty not everyone chooses to have the tests done.

      Reply

      • Alicia
        September 12, 2019

        Hi skeptvet and thanks for sharing your knowledge. Two questions: I have a 7 year-old Havanese who used to be on grain-free, and there have been 2 dogs in her bloodline who died in the past year from congestive heart failure. Is this a scenario where the screening is warranted? There is a university near me that can do it, financially it’s fine, but for all the reasons you’ve stated, I want to make the best decision I can.

        And the second question is, where does dentistry fall in the spectrum of risk vs benefit? My dog is going in for dentistry and having two teeth pulled due to possible gum disease (and I’ve been brushing her teeth all these years. Sigh.) But since dentistry involves anesthesia, is it worth the risk?
        Thanks again for writing this blog, I refer to it again and again.

        Reply

      • skeptvet
        September 13, 2019

        Most of the heart disease in small-breed dogs, such as Havanese, is due to mitral valve disease (MVD), which is quite different from the dilated cardiomyopathy seen in dogs on grain-free diets. MVD is largely genetic, and it is unlikely that there is a significant nutritional risk factor. I would try to find out if this is what happened to the dogs in your pet’s bloodline. If your dogs develop a heart murmur, it is appropriate to have an ultrasound and x-rays to investigate, and it’s not wrong to do this anyway, but I would suspect there is very little risk of diet-associated disease in this situation.

        Like all medical treatments, the risks and benefits of dentistry have to b balanced for each individual based on their situation. A young healthy dog with severe dental disease should clearly have dentistry. An elderly dog with multiple serious illness and mild or moderate dental disease probably should not. But the exact balance for any individual is subjective and is something you have to discuss with your vet. In general, the risks of anesthesia are far less than most people fear. In humans, it is clear that lack of dental care is linked with chronic disease and higher mortality. This link hasn’t ben clearly demonstrated in dogs by controlled research studies, but it is likely similar. I would discuss the risks and benefits with your vet and see if they can help you decide what is best for your dog.

        Good luck!

        Reply

  17. Sabra Ewing
    August 17, 2019

    So are you saying that a dog should not get blood work done every year? I thought this was my first dog, and I only found out that she had kidney failure when she had to get blood work done to get her teeth cleaned. She was acting normally, but then very soon after that, she stopped eating. She didn’t have any type of symptoms before that, and I believe that if I had gotten her blood work done more often, I could’ve known about it. She died when she was four years old. Also, from getting my blood work done, I learned about certain things that I needed to correct. You can learn about things like your cholesterol or vitamin D deficiency. So how are you saying that getting bloodwork would not help? I don’t understand it.

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      August 18, 2019

      Yes, I am saying that if you run bloodwork yearly on a large number of animals, the results will provide no benefit to most, will help some, and will harm some. In humans, we have a pretty good idea what the relative number of people in each category is for specific blood tests. You don’t get your cholesterol checked annually starting at age 7 because it would be meaningless, but you may start doing it in your forties or fifties depending on your weight, lifestyle, family history of cardiovascular disease, and other factors. The decision about what test to run and when to run it is about understanding the risks and benefits, not just randomly running a bunch of tests at some arbitrary interval “just in case.”

      You might find this book interesting:

      Overdiagnosed

      Reply

  18. L
    September 24, 2019

    My Cairn Terrier is going to the ophthalmologist for a ocular melanosis screening, turns out the regular vet cannot rule out during a routine eye exam/annual checkup, but he did see haze and a quick look by the ophthalmologist saw the early signs of ocular melanosis.

    Also, he has distichiasis (ingrown eyelashes) and this can be taken care of during the ophthalmologist visit.

    I choose to err on the side of safety, in this case.

    Neither of these conditions are causing any observable symptoms/discomfort at present.

    Reply

  19. SB
    February 24, 2023

    Regarding what you wrote above on May 31, 2019 about the spleen lesion of your dog and your coworker’s dog…I read “Splenic nodules or masses are extremely common findings when ultrasounding the canine abdomen.” But I also read a fairly high statistic for malignancy, so I’m confused. If they are extremely common, how can so many be malignant — are that many dogs having malignant masses on their spleen? If you write anywhere about research related to nodules of the spleen, I would be interested. Please direct me to it.

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      February 25, 2023

      Incidental findings of masses during ultrasound are not unusual (that is probably more accurate than “extremely common,” though we don’t have precise definitions for these or statistics for screening with ultrasound). This has become an issue since ultrasound has gone from a rare test applied by specialists to something nearly every vet has available all the time.

      Historically, we have always said that about 2/3 of splenic masses found because they had ruptured or begun to bleed were maliognant, and about 2/3 of these were hemangiosarcoma. However, vets have long suspected that masses found incidentally during ultrasound that were not ruptured nor bleeding were less likely to be cancerous, and this has now been shown to be true. About 70% of these incidental masses are benign.

      This complicates the decision making because surgery to remove the spleen for incidental masses may often not benefit the patient, and there are risks and costs to surgery. Again, though, one can never be certain whether a mass will cause problems or whether surgery will cause problems in an individual dog, so there is inevitably some uncertainty to any decision, and this becomes more a matter of the individual owner’s risk tolerance than a medical decision. My colleague chose not to go to surgery, and we followed the mass on ultrasound for years. It never caused a problem. I would probably make the same choice because I by temperament prefer not to act if the probability of a benefit seems low. But that, again, is a personal, not a medical decision, and many owners prefer to go to surgery, and that may be perfectly appropriate for them and their pets.

      Reply

  20. art william malernee
    February 27, 2023

    I’m sure some client will ask me what do they do in human medicine when they find a mass on your spleen on ultrasound and suspect its benign? I get ads for a ultrasound machines to attach to my iphone for 3000 some dollars all the time now so used ones i suspect will be 1000 dollars soon. Soon clients will have ultrasounds because they want to watch the baby grow up in moms belly and just for fun will look at their own or their dog or cats abdomen. The specialty practice I refer to charges 900 dollars to ultrasound the abdomen now on emergency. Other vets use quickie ultrasounds now at almost no cost almost like you would a thermometer. So if your patient is asymptomatic but has a lump on the spleen do you pull out the parachute argument that you do not need a prospective randomized controlled trial for everything and promote that you remove the spleen or biopsy a lump on the spleen? Have they done any RCTs in human medicine to help answer this question?

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      February 27, 2023

      As always, the decision is about discussing the risks and benefits of each option with the clients and letting them decide what fist their approach best. We know from this study that about 70% of incidental splenic masses in dogs are benign (as opposed to only about 30% of masses that are actively bleeding), so watching and waiting is a reasonable option. Some of these may progress and need removal, and some may well start to bleed, so an argument can be made for removing the mass before it causes trouble, but that is likely to be of no benefit to the patient in many cases.

      I have clients who go both ways on this. The majority of cases where they elect to follow the mass with periodic ultrasounds have had no clinical symptoms and have been glad they chose not to go to surgery, but sooner or later there will be a case that does have problems. The question of whether the conservative or aggressive approach is “better” isn’t really a medical one but more an issue of personal risk tolerance.

      Reply

  21. art william malernee
    March 1, 2023

    Incidental findings of masses during ultrasound are not unusual (that is probably more accurate than “extremely common,” though we don’t have precise definitions for these or statistics for screening with ultrasound).>>>>

    according to doctor Chatgpt, in human medicine a study looked at 1000 successive ultrasounds and 3-4% had spleen lumps. I ask what happened to the patients and doctor chatgpt did not have that information . So still behind a peer reviewed paywall i guess.

    Reply

  22. SB
    March 2, 2023

    Thanks for the reply. I prefer not to act if the probability of a benefit seems low, too. I’m curious, was an aspirate done of the spleen lesion of your dog or your coworker’s dog?

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      March 3, 2023

      No, aspirate samples of the spleen are often non-diagnostic due to blood contamination, so we often don’t do them unless the small chance of a diagnostic finding is going to change the owner’s decision on how to proceed, and in this case she did not believe it would.

      Reply

  23. SB
    March 9, 2023

    If there was a diagnostic finding of cancer, I guess that would change the course of treatment for some people. But even if diagnostic, what is the accuracy? I read a study that cytopathologic and histopathologic diagnoses from spleen samples in dogs were in disagreement in 14/35 dogs (40.0%). That seems high to me. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21554481/
    I read a statistic online that 23% of people diagnosed with liver cancer have been misdiagnosed (but I didn’t see a study reference so I don’t know if that’s accurate).

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      March 9, 2023

      Yes, misdiagnosis is a real problem. Aspirate cytology of the spleen, as I mentioned, is very unreliable and so is not typically done for this reason.

      Reply

  24. SB
    March 10, 2023

    Someone told me that although aspirates of the spleen can be nondiagnostic, when we do get hemangiosarcoma, it is accurate. Do you know of any research related to accuracy for that diagnosis?

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      March 10, 2023

      There is little data to answer this question. One study compared cytology and biopsy results in 16 cases of hemangiosarcoma (HSA). 25% of the cytology results were falsely negative, so the diagnosis would be missed often. There were no cytology results that identified HSA when it wasn’t there, so that would fit with your hypothesis. However, one study of 16 dogs at one institution is pretty thin ice, and how likely cytology is to miss or falsely diagnose HSA in the real world is pretty hard to guess.

      Reply

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