I once referred briefly to Dr. Andrew Jones in a previous post as an example of one of the warning signs of quackery, the claim of secret knowledge that mainstream science and medicine doesn’t want you to have. Of course, his marketing activities include lots of other characteristic features of alternative medicine propaganda, including unfounded accusations about the harm done by conventional medicine and unproven or outright false claims about the safety and efficacy of alternative methods. In many ways, he is a fine example of many warning signs of quackery.
It turns out, the veterinary medical licensing authorities in Canada, where Dr. Jones lives, have more backbone than most of those in the U.S., and for years they have been warning Dr. Jones that unfairly denigrating his colleagues and making false claims is unprofessional and incompatible with the standards licensed veterinarians are expected to uphold. He repeatedly claimed he would abide by the marketing and advertising guidelines all other veterinarians are subject to in his jurisdiction, and repeated broke those commitments. Finally, the British Columbia Veterinary Medical Association (BCVMA) imposed significant fines, and Dr. Jones has chosen to give up his license so he can market his veterinary self-help products without interference.
His supporters, of course, are trying to paint him as a victim, but the evidence is clear that he is yet another alternative guru with a messiah complex making money not only off peddling ineffective or unproven remedies but discouraging pet owners from seeking real medical care for their pets.
The details of the proceedings against Dr. Jones are included in the BCVMA reports available here:
BCVMA Investigating Committee Report
College of Veterinarians Council Final Decision
(note-these links are no longer working. For now, the ruling can be found here)
In 2003, 2004, and 2005, Dr. Jones was asked to stop using advertising language for his practice and products that implied he provided better care or was less concerned about money than other veterinarians. He advertised his own services as “affordable” and “superior” compared to other vets and said things like:
“You will find us honest, convenient, affordable, and above all caring”
“We use only the best materials and labs”
Some of this language was relatively innocuous, and his supporters have made a point of this to suggest that there is no real issue but competition and professional jealousy here. However, it should be obvious why advertising oneself as better than ones colleagues, especially with no evidence but that of one’s own ego to support such a claim, is both offensive and unprofessional. In any case, the only sanction imposed on Dr. Jones was to stop using such language, which he repeatedly agreed in writing to do. As we shall see, he not only broke these promises but engaged in far more egregiously inappropriate behavior.
Dr. Jones went on to form “Dr. Jones Inner Circle Forum,” a web-based service which charged pet owners a subscription fee to receive his “secret” knowledge and wisdom that he repeatedly claimed would make most visits to the veterinarian unnecessary. On this forum, he repeatedly accused conventional veterinarians of naked greed and a lack of interest in the well-being of their patients:
1) P.P.S My goal is to give you the most up to date, unbiased dog and cat health information to allow YOU to keep your pet in top health. I want you to be an empowered pet owner, and You will be one as part of my exclusive Dr. Andrew Jones’ Inner Circle. [I can’t help notice that hucksters and quacks have a great fondness for CAPITAL LETERS. I wonder why that is…]
2) At the end of the day it boils down to money. If the public are not lining vets pockets with unnecessary visits, purchasing processed foods from which vets also take a percentage, that’s quite a reduction in income.
3) I am “positive” that many ‘conventional” veterinarians think that Veterinary Secrets Revealed is a bunch of “hocus pocus” and should be shut down.
What does this mean?
It means that other veterinarians are upset about my website, ebook, and Complete Home Study Course.
After all, I’m showing people how to treat their own pets and save money on Vet bills [at least some of the money they save, of course, will go to Dr. Jones]
4) You should check out my Complete Home Study Multimedia Course. I guarantee that you will treat your pet’s illness and ailments confidently, competently and for less than it would cost if you relied exclusively on professional Veterinary services.
5) This issue: The 6th Secret – The 6th key to extending your pet’s life is knowing when to AVOID you Veterinarian.
In his posts on the Inner Circle forum, Dr. Jones repeatedly claimed alternative or “holistic” methods were safer and more effective than scientific medicine and that the only reason that conventional veterinarians object to them is that the “Secret Society of Veterinarians” was afraid they would lose money if people learned how to keep their pets healthy without professional medical care. When challenged for proof of his claims, Dr. Jones resorted to the time-worn and thoroughly meaningless arguments of longevity, popularity, and personal experience or anecdote:
‘There is no proof…’
But how do you think that most animals in the world are treated? It’s with natural medicine…
Most people in India or China can’t afford to even see a vet or buy medication.
They use herbs, acupressure, massage, supplements, homeopathic treatments.
The animals get better, because the treatments work.
I have seen thousands of pets recover with home remedies.
That is proof.
As if we are seriously expected to believe that the cats and dogs in the third world who do not have access to real veterinary care are healthier than the pets in the developed world. Just like the people who are too poor to have access to science-based medicine are healthier than those of us in the developed world, despite the minor problems of high infant mortality, low life-expectancy, and rampant infectious and parasitic diseases most of us have never seen, I suppose? Arrant nonsense.
The list of absurd, untrue, and unprofessional accusations and claims, all made in an effort to sell books, videos, and subscriptions to the “secrets” of his “Inner Circle,” is extensive. Here are just a few examples:
1) I firmly believe in holistic medicine for pets.
We are killing them with the most of the terrible dog foods on the market along with pesticides contained in flea and tick medications and also medicines the vets want you to purchase. [a letter supposedly from a reader that Dr. Jones reprinted because it reflected his views]
2) “…you should be leery of any LARGE pet food manufacturer- they re[sic] in the business to profit first”
3) HERBAL THERAPY. A number of herbs are used in diabetes. These include Gymnema, Bitter Melon, Fenugreek, and Ginseng. These herbs can be found in specific diabetic herbal combinations. Ginseng is the most effective of these herbs. It has been shown to lower blood sugar in people, and is believed to do the same in animals. The dose is 30 mg per lb of body weight twice daily of the dried herb, or 1 drop per pound of body weight twice daily of the tincture.[implying people can treat their pet’s diabetes alone, with unproven herbal remedies, is especially egregious because it will undoubtedly lead to suffering and death for animals with this serious disease who are not properly treated]
4) Pay Close Attention – today, I’m going to show you why conventional veterinary medicine is harming your pet and step-by-step what you must do to prevent it.
“Regular” veterinary care has lost it’s [sic] effectiveness over the years, and in some cases is causing illness in our pets.
5) The entire Pet Health Industry has a vested interest in discrediting alternative medicines which can safely, naturally and effectively allow pet owners to care for thei pets at home. [a nice example of the conspiracy-theory aspect of quackery]
6) Most veterinarians just choose to ignore the research because either they still feel the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks, or that they don’t want to lose income from giving booster shots to all those animals each year.
Apart from such false and unproven accusations and claims, Dr. Jones engaged in inappropriate hucksterism, offering “money-back guarantees” and “cures” when such claims can never be anything but lies in medicine.
Despite all of this, the licensing board did not intend to drive Dr. Jones out of practice. He was fined substantially, both for the numerous violations of ethics laws and, even more importantly, for acknowledging in writing that he understood and intended to abide by them and then reneging on these promises in order to continue to profit from unethical and deceitful advertising. However, when he offered to give up his license, the board specifically indicated it did not consider this an appropriate or necessary punishment for the violations. Dr. Jones decision to give up his license is entirely his own.
Unfortunately, it is likely he will continue to profit from spreading lies and misinformation about the veterinary profession, and from offering dangerous advice and unproven or false treatments. He will have to walk a fine line since without a license he cannot legally practice veterinary medicine, but of course the benefits of a free society are great enough that he must be allowed to spout his nonsense as long as he does not cross the line into liable, slander, or the practice of medicine. Sadly, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he ends up in the U.S. where regulatory authorities have proven far less willing to challenge such snake oil salesman taking advantage of pet owners and profiting from fear and ignorance.
it’s bad enough that the internet is rife with charlatans and snake oil hucksters who prey on desperate pet owners, but when licensed veterinarians engage in crass commercialism and guerrilla marketing tactics, it’s *shameful.*
i always assume that doctors like this can’t make a living practicing medicine, so they try to make a quick buck on the internet. maybe they don’t realize that they crossed the line between professional and sleazy.
what do you think of this website, skeptvet?
dr. dressler
http://www.dogcancerblog.com
skeptvet said: “imposed significant fines, and Dr. Jones has chosen to give up his license so he can market his veterinary self-help products without interference.”
this reminds me of tom lonsdale, the author of “raw meaty bones” (http://www.rawmeatybones.com), who was expelled from the australian veterinary association. he’s lauded by his followers (rabid rawfers) as a junk pet food whistleblower.
Mr. Tom Lonsdale and the Australian Veterinary Association
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA20040513042
Mr. Tom Lonsdale’s AVA membership cancelled – Winning respect for the Profession
“The committee found that by making the allegations Tom Lonsdale had seriously breached the AVA Code of Professional Conduct to an extent that warranted cancellation of his membership. Consequently regardless of suggestions otherwise that have appeared in the media and elsewhere, Tom Lonsdale’s membership was cancelled because of unfounded allegations of scientific and consumer fraud that he made against you, his veterinary colleagues.”
broken link: http://www.ava.com.au/avj/private/0407/04070384.pdf?PHPSESSID=863e2587cf
Tom Lonsdale’s membership was cancelled because of unfounded allegations of scientific and consumer fraud that he made against you, his veterinary colleagues.”
broken link: http://www.ava.com.au/avj/private/0407/04070384.pdf?PHPSESSID=863e2587cf>>>>
ellen, is there a non broken link so I can see if its Tom or those who control the AVA that are making unfounded allegations. I have see Tom and commercial dog food loving ausie vets go at it and saw little science to go along with either side of the raw barf debate. Tom seemed to treat vets on the other side of the debate better than they were treating him.
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
dr. malernee – i couldn’t retrieve the old web page using internet archive and a keyword search of the ava.com.au website wasn’t successful either. sorry. btw, the quote was taken directly from the original website, word-for-word. maybe the webmaster could help you retrieve the information (http://www.ava.com.au/help#info).
australian veterinary journal, may 2004
http://snipr.com/1hkc8f
Cancellation of Memberships
“The AVA Board received complaints from AVA members about breaches of the AVA Code of Professional Conduct for the Members of the Australian Veterinary Association by two members: Dr Sven Temmingh and Dr Tom Lonsdale. Both members reside in NSW so the Board requested advice from the NSW Division. The Division established a complaints committee of peers to investigate both complaints. The complaints committee made a recommendation, based on their investigation of the matters, that the Code had been breached by both veterinarians. The NSW Division accepted the findings of the committee and made a recommendation to the AVA Board that the memberships of both veterinarians be cancelled. The Board invited Drs Temmingh and Lonsdale to appear before the Board before a decision was made and both declined the invitation. The Board subsequently accepted the recommendation to cancel the membership of Dr Sven Temmingh and of Dr Tom Lonsdale. They have both been informed and their names removed from the Register of Members.”
ellen
when a veterinarian, such as the holistic vet cited below, is disciplined by a state veterinary board for incompetence and negligence, how many strikes do they get before their license to practice medicine is permanently revoked?
Tobin, Stephen, Veterinarian/Lic. #: 001935/Meriden
Petition No2007-1031-047-024 Licensure in other states: Unknown Memorandum of Decision – August 25, 2010 -18 mo. probation; coursework in medical records: pain management: anesthesia; restriction of practice: no surgery Type of case: Incompetence/Negligence
http://www.ct.gov/dph/cwp/view.asp?a=3143&q=435274&dphNav_GID=1830
http://www.dir.ct.gov/dph/hcquality/Physician/047-VETERINARIAN/047-001935/20010919047027.pdf
http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/communications/rar/pdf/qu_3_10.pdf
dr. malernee – i couldn’t retrieve the old web page using internet archive and a keyword search of the ava.com.au website wasn’t successful either.>>>
If a vet organizations/regulatory agency are going to make public statements reaching conclusions about licensed vets they need to provide a non password protected online documentation link that led them to that conclusion and allow those vets found guilty to provide online rebuttal. Expert opinion cannot be trusted. The public needs to see evidence from both sides. If a vet gets fined by the state board because he did not give a oral vitamin supplement to a asymptomatic dog on a balanced diet the public should be able to see that online next to the online notice from the board that the vet was fined so the public can make their own conclusion who is the quack the vet who got fined for not giving a vitamin suppliment or the vet the fla board hired to give expert opinion not using the vitamin supplement should result in a fine.
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
dr. malernee, in the case of the holistic/homeopathic vet in connecticut who was fined by the state board and restricted from practicing surgery, the dog, hannah, died due to veterinary incompetence and negligence. the documentation is online (see my 11/19 post), so both sides are represented.
prior to hannah’s death, following what should have been routine spay surgery, the vet confirmed the presence of a mass the size of a tennis ball in her abdomen. he prescribed a homeopathic remedy, which was ineffective. i’m surprised the board didn’t consider that negligent. wouldn’t a first step be to perform an x-ray or ultrasound to determine the nature of the mass prior to surgery??
http://www.dir.ct.gov/dph/hcquality/Physician/047-VETERINARIAN/047-001935/20010919047027.pdf
“The respondent performed a physical exam and, by palpating H.S.’ abdomen, found the mass. He prescribed Pulsatilla, a homeopathic medication, 1 milliliter for three days. After three days of treatment, H.S. failed to improve. The owner called and reported to respondent that the mass had not decreased and scheduled an appointment for spaying. The owner directed respondent to remove the mass…”
btw, the dog’s owner, who appears to be into “natural rearing” and CAVM (http://bonniebrierwesties.com/NR.html), has a web page which provides additional insight into the malpractice case:
remembering hannah
http://bonniebrierwesties.com/hannah1.html
“Her AKC registered name was Holyrood’s Remember Me, but Hannah, a daughter of my Ch. Bonnie Brier James Butler, CD TD, was the sweetest girl and she has been gone for two years now. It took that many years to follow the proper channels for justice to be served. She died because of Dr. Stephen Tobin, a veterinarian in Meriden, Connecticut.”
when a veterinarian, such as the holistic vet cited below, is disciplined by a state veterinary board for incompetence and negligence, how many strikes do they get before their license to practice medicine is permanently revoked?>>>>
Holistic is just a marketing term. I find the term offensive. This guy who send home the pet still under anes the same day of the surgery should not get anymore strikes.
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
he prescribed a homeopathic remedy, which was ineffective. i’m surprised the board didn’t consider that negligent. >>>>
I do not see why governments still let doctors sell medicine with no medicine in it. I keep asking thinking that some country has already figured out a way to stop it. You would think a country like ours with all the government regulation could at least stop people from selling medication that had no medicine in it.
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
ellen,
if you have VIN on your computer there is a thread called raw meaty bones Tom was on that had six hundred plus post. I just found the thread today. It looks like the vinners are saying Tom was kicked off VIN for copy-write violation but I cannot find anything about that except Tom asking if he could quote a vinner. Here is the last attack of Tom on vin after they kicked him off. The quote about americans i think is about a girl on vin who does not like male day old chick put through a meat grinder to kill them. She is making the claim they should be put male one day old chicks under anes gas first before they are put in the meat grinder. From the part of the vin thread i read i cannot find any documentation to support giving tom the boot. If you find something Tom Wrote that supports giving him the boot please post it. Remember that a lot of people doing scientific studies also believe in god so you just cannot muzzle people for being unscientific.
Here is the VIN quote calling Tom a pig.
**This quote has been removed by the site owner at the request of the management of VIN. Copyright law applies to websites and the owner of the site owns the content, so conversations from other sites cannot be reproduced here without the express permission of the individuals and site owners.**
art malernee dvm
fla lic 1820
Thank you so much for this information. I subscribe to a rescue group chat line, which has some Dr. Jones supporters. They have been trying to get people to sign a petition to “prevent Dr. Jones from losing his license, because the animals will suffer.”
I was able to provide a link to this blog and got some positive feedback from several people.
I’m glad the information was helpful. It is unforuntely easy for people like Dr. Jones to make themselves seem noble, altruistic, and misunderstood when the truth is more complex and less flattering.
I just stumbled upon this blog while searching for a way to help Andrew Jones get his license back. It’s probably a waste of time for me to try and defend this man in this venue, but I just can’t let this talk fly without comment.
Skepvet, you have made as many unfair and untrue comments as you accuse Dr. Jones of making, and I’ll cite a few with my comment after each:
‘Teabags on a reddened eye, activated charcoal for an upset stomach’ are two of Jones’ remedies for those conditions. You reply with ‘oh, but what if the animal has glaucoma?’, and ‘what if the dog has an intestinal obstruction, what good will those do?’
Come on, what are the percentages here? If I have heartburn and I pop an Alka-Seltzer, well, what good will that do if the heartburn is caused by esophageal cancer? Well, in my 68 years, I’ve popped more than a few Alka-Seltzer as a first treatment and sought more serious remedies if the heartburn persisted. It’s called making an informed choice, and I maintain my right to make it.
“Dr. Jones makes the allegation that he is better than his colleagues”. Well, Skepvet, I never saw any evidence of that kind of arrogance in his writings, but what if he did? Some people are better at their profession than others. I’m a retired college professor and you can bet your bippy that I was a better teacher than some of my colleagues and that is borne out not by me, but by thousands of student evaluations. Some of my colleagues had monumental egos – unbounded and largely unfounded, or they just didn’t know the subject matter, or they knew it and simply couldn’t teach. I would imagine that veterinarians have the same efficacy dispersion, and that for every Andrew Jones that has his license pulled, there are two very wealthy doctors who should have their licenses revoked but never do. Maybe they stay under the radar, or maybe they pay the required homage to the egos of the licensing authorities and to their respected peers, I don’t know – but you might.
“Dr Jones is making money with his ‘Secrets and Lies’ and he markets all sorts of snake-oil remedies”. I’m paraphrasing, I know, but there may be a modicum of truth to this. Since his license was revoked, Andrew has cranked up his marketing threefold, but again, so what? Personally, I think he’s just trying to survive since the gurus have nullified his years of education and thousands of animals successfully treated by conventional veterinary practices. Moreover, one doesn’t have to buy his products – there are always cheaper alternatives – like teabags and activated charcoal. Why can’t the ‘Powers That Be’ put aside their powers and their egos and their offended sensibilities and let the consumers decide whether or not to ignore this man? We have functioning brains, honest we do!
I have but one pet – a 6-year-old Himalayan male beauty called Magic. Every month or two, he would have bouts of uncontrolled vomiting, and after many, many anguished trips to the vet with his treatment of prednisolone and famotadine and Baytril and his “most likely” diagnosis of cholangeal hepatitis and many, many thousands of my retirement dollars, I tried another approach. After much reading and research, and Andrew Jones was only one of many sources, I suspected IBD and I eliminated all wheat, corn, and soy from Magic’s diet. Wow, even a year later, no more vomiting. Magic for Magic! I still take him to the same vet, and I opt for an unconventional approach only after I research everything thoroughly. Isn’t that what you professionals want – an informed consumer? And can’t that information be gleaned from multiple and diverse sources?
Most caring pet owners are capable of separating the chicanery from the potentially helpful if given the right information, free from all snobbery and personal bias. I never met the man, but I think Andrew Jones is a genuinely nice guy. Do I advocate following everything he says? Nooooo! I can cherrypick what might help and what might hurt as easily as you cherrypicked the snippets of his writings that were so objectionable. I also think we Americans (and Canadians and Australians) have solid reasons to fear the influence wielded by Big Pharma and Big Oil and Big Tobacco and yes, Big Pet Food – on many professions, including veterinary practice. I think you should employ your influence and knowledge not to ‘pile on’ a man like Andrew Jones, but to support his right to disagree and dissent and even help him get his license (which he earned) back.
All this said, Skepvet, I really like your website and I think that more professionals should follow your lead. We should have Skepprofessor and Skepdoctor and skeplawyer and many others, if for no other reason than to promote civil and informative dialogue. But be careful what you say lest some of the veterinary powers become incensed and go after your license. Not because they should, but because they can. If you cannot find it in your heart and mind to speak up for someone like Andrew, then at least watch your own back and remember the words of Rev. Martin Niemoller ‘I didn’t speak up ……. and then they came for me.’
Tom
Tom,
I appreciate your thoughtful comments. You raise a lot of important questions. Some I won’t address since they are really outside of the focus of this blog. I suspect, for example, a general suspicion of the “powers” and government regulation, which is a big and contentious political issue, but not really in the territory of this blog. I see perfectly sound reasons for the sanctions that led Dr. Jones to surrender his license (which, I have to remind everyone, he did voluntarily because he did not want to comply with the rules the authorities had set for all the veterinarians in his region), but of course that doesn’t mean such actions are always jusitified or in the public’s best interests.
As for the example of treating red eyes at home and your analogy with over-the-counter antacids, I have to point out that treating your own symptoms is quite different from treating those of a companion animal who can’t speak for itself. I routinely see animals blinded by glaucoma who are brought in only after they start running into things, because owners did not notice the symptoms of what in humans is a searingly painful condition. You would probably know the difference between regular heartburn and a bleeding duodenal ulcer in yourself, but in reality pet owners often are not able to distinguish mild from serious medicla problems in their pets, partly due to not knowing what to look for, and partly because their pets can’t articulate the nature of their symptoms. So I don’t agree that Dr. Jones’ advice in such an example is as benign as you think it is.
As for exactly what Dr. Jones has said that led to his trouble with the authorities, it is detailed in my post and the official documents I provided links to. I think there is no question that one way he makes money is by falsely accusing other veterinarians of greed and medical incompetance, and I think that is wrong and deserves to be sanctioned.
You seem to take a caveat emptor approach in general, and again this is connected with larger political ideological questions. But history shows pretty clearly that the “medical anarchism” of the days before doctors were lciensed and regulated is not good for the public. People are simply not able to make free and fully informed choices about healthcare because 1) they lack relevant knowledge and information, 2) they are constrained by the urgency and emotional nature of the need (i.e. demand is severely inelastic), and 3) by the time they realize they have been cheated, great and irreperable harm has often been done. It’s not a question of arrogantly assuming people are stupid, but of recognizing that we can’t all be experts in everything and that leaving professionals free to sell us ineffecvtive or harmful services is not in our best interests. If I choose an incopetant lawyer with great marketing skills and end up unjustly imprisoned, sure I’m free not to use that lawyer again or recommend him to my friends, but I don’t get that prison time back. What works for luxury goods doesn’t necessarily work for healthcare, so I think there is a need to safegurard the public against quackery no matter how smart or informed individual members of the public are. So I don’t think that Dr. Jones marketing style is just in bad taste, I think it is fundamentally harmful to pets and their owners.
As far as your experience with your cat, limited antigen diet trials are a standard therapy for GI symptoms in cats, so the fact that you had to stumble across that approach yourself rather than have it offerred to you by your veterinarian does not speak well for how you have been served as a pet owner. It does not, however, justify Dr. Jones conduct, which includes not only standard conventional advice such as that but lots of bogus recommendations that undoubtedly sound just as smart and reasonable to many pet owners. I presented examples of the unacceptable things Dr. Jones said or did not to cherrypick evidence but because the purpose was to show that he said or did enough things to justify the sanctions levied against him. Even if the rest of his advice was reasonable, the things he claimed or recommended that were inappropriate are still sufficient grounds in my opinion for my criticisms of him and the authorities’ actions.
I don’t at all see Dr. Jones as a victim of the evil establishment, as you and other supporters seem to want to characterize him. I see him as an egotistical, greedy marketer of often highly dubious services who would like to be thought of as an iconoclast and a persecuted visionary because such roles feed both his ego and his bank account.
Sorry to have to say this but you sound like one of the money grubbing people on the BCVMA. If all vets would be truthful?(ha) we would not have the number of dogs and cats that are dying from cancer, which has doubled in the last 10 years.
We have lost a 9 1/2 year old Golden Retriever from a tumor on the slpeen caused by the crap that was imported from China, and used in “store brand” dry dog food, along with ethoxyquin, BHA and BHT poisons that the FDA said should NOT be used in pet food because they all cause cancer. The pet food manufacturers argued that they “had to have them as preservatives” ( mainly because it was a whole lot cheaper and increased their bottom line). I know of at least 14 dogs who died the same way.
Feel free to provide some kind of evidence that splenic hemagiosarcoma is due to melamine, ethoxyquin, or any of the other substances you mentio. It’s easy to throw insults and make stuff up, but it doesn’t make anything you say true, nor does it have anything to do with Dr. Jones, who desrves the title “money grubbing” far more than most.
Why are vets so “scared” of Dr. Jones? Could he be on the right path?
Imagine one vet getting so many to “think” and get alternative options!!!
This article is so one sided, are you an expert, then provide the otherside as well.
Money grabbing: hmm wonder who you mean as I looked at my vet bills?
Not scared, disgusted. He lies and offers his opinions as if they were facts, and he fools people. This is not in the best interest of our pets or their owners, and I object to it on that basis.
As for the “other side,” Dr. Jones is perfectly capable of marketing his own point of view, as he has done aggressively for some time. My purpose here was to show how this marketing is really a scam, not to pretend that his version of thinsg is just as legitimate as anybody else’s, because it isn’t.
You sound like a very bitter Veterinarian. You, like the majority of Vets, think about your bottom line. Annual shots, which I’ve stopped on my dogs, are a real money maker. I read a report from an Veterinarian Immunologist who stated that annual shots were just that, a money maker. Once a dog has been given the shot, you don’t need to keep doing this year after year. You cannot make the immune system any more immune than it already is. Those words came from the expert. And his report stated that Vets know this. Ugh! So why then do they insist on giving shots every year? Money!!!!! And it’s not just shots, Vets are quick to put a dog on seizure medicine without first exploring why the seizure occured. In my dog’s case, I knew it was something he ingested. A 7-year old dog doesn’t just have a seizure out of no where. It would happen every now and then and always within a 3-hour window of eating. My vet said… No… it’s not food. B.S. I spent the whole day on the internet searching. It was Rosemary. Rosemary is known to cause seizures in people! Rosemary is now added to a lot of pet food and treats. That was my dog’s trigger. I now read labels and don’t buy anything with rosemary in it. And guess what? Four years later and my dog hasn’t had a seizure since. Imagine how many pets are on seizure medicine and being fed food that is the trigger for seizures. How horrific does that sound? A conventional Vet would prescribe medicine. A holistic Vet would explore the trigger. That’s the difference between you and Dr. Andrew Jones.
You clearly have a lot of anger, but you are atttacking a straw man of your own making, an image of who you think I am that you’ve invented inside your head.
1. I don’t vaccinate annually, and neither do any of the 25 vets in my practice. This is a tired old complaint by alternative practitioners that doesn’t reflect how most veterinarians respond to changes in research evidence. Sure, some vets may still follow this practice, but it is by no means the “mainstream” opinion. It is just a marketing toool for people like Dr. Jones to make themselves look better by telling lies about others.
2. It is amazing that you don’t mind Dr. Jones making a living by selling his “secrets” and misrepresenting the veterinary profession, but you somehow tink other vets are driven by greed! Ignorant propoganda which you’ve clearly swallowed whole.
3. Again, I know a lot of vets, and none of them have the cavalier approach to seizures you describe. Essential oils, including rosemary, have been reported to sometimes cause seizures in some individuals at some doses, but there is absolutely no evidence that the plant itself, or the tiny amounts in comemrcial food, cause seizures. You are making exactly the same kind of unwarranted assumptions about the cause of your dog’s seizures, and ignoring the complexity of the triggers and underlying causes of seizures, that you accuse vets of making. Without an appropriate workup, and sometimes even with one, you can’t know what caused them or why they stopped. Like Dr. Andrew, you are relying on your own individual observations, which thousands of years of history have shown not to be reliable in making medical judgements, and ignoring the need for real scientific evidence.
Making stuff up, even if it is stuff clients like to hear, is not good medicine, and lying about other veterinarians as a marketing strategy is not ethical. And your practice of ignoring what I actually say in favor of manufacturing an enemy who thinks and does what you imagine, so you can attack that enemy freely, makes your comment merely spiteful and pointless. Real debate requires actually listeninga nd considering what someone else says, and the ability to learn requires the ability to listen to what others say even when they disagree with you, and not to turn disagreements into personal attacks (especially when you know nothing about the person you are attacking!).
Jehovah created all of the real foods & spices for treating specific diseases. It is admirable that some vets as well as medical doctors are returning to the idea that real foods & spices are an alternative to the poisons that big pharmaceuticals invented to increase their profits and destroy their customers.
Many responders to your messages have noted that you are afraid to put your name out there to back up your statements and accusations against Dr. Andrew Jones. You justify your remarks by saying “you are relying on your own individual observations, which thousands of years of history have shown not to be reliable in making medical judgements, and ignoring the need for real scientific evidence.” However, you are ignoring hundreds of years of history of expensive pharmaceuticals that haven’t produced cures and which have caused patients as well as doctors to look to alternative medicine
This is the first time I have come across this blog, and after a goood look around I feel it is a bit of a joke. True, you have some decent and sound information, but it is mixed in with what sounds like alot of personal strife and ego. You attack and belittle anyone who does not conform to your ideas or criticizes anything you have said – the people responding to your blog! Dr Andrew Jones was my vet for a number of years, before he gave up his license, and I was extreemly happy and satisfied with his professionalism and ccare towards my animals. I had previously been with another vet in Nelson, for many years, who was far less satisfactory with results, care, and – in the long run – cost. I was very saddened to see Dr Jones loose his license and practice, I feel as though many local animals and owners have suffered as a result. With Dr Jones, we cured long standing issues, through alternative methods AND appropriate conventional veterinary medicine as needed. Issues that were costing a fortune and getting no results with the 100% conventional approach the previous vet has used. Masking symptoms and makking my ppet sicker and weaker in the long run.
As for Dr Tom Londsdale, I feel you were very quick to use him as another example of a terribly dangerous and unprofessional vet, in the end getting what he deserved. This was appauling to read, as I feel you do not have significant evidence of this at all – besides the fact the Australian Veterinary Association was not happy with him, and booted him out. Although I did not know Dr Londsdale personally, my vet in New Zealand (whom I worked with at his well respected clinic) became friends with him as a result of following his story. He was – and still is – very well respected in Veterinary circles both in Australia and New Zealand. I later read his book, and I can understand why it was so controversial, but I have since learned there iis a great deal of truth in it. No wonder he had so many death threats – serious ones, it was fairly big news in NZ 9 years ago.
I am not a vet, but I have spent years working with vets, reading the manuals and texts to inform myself as best as possible on my animals’ own physiology, as well as veterinary pharmacology and theraputics – I believe I owe that to my cats, dogs, and horses. The more I am informed, the better I can help them, and find a truely competent vet. I admit that although I was a very satified client of Dr Jones, when I first checked out his online business I was very put off. It is well marketed, so much so that it is too much for me, constant flashes and links to his products. I have come to realize that his information is still sound, and with the help of his computer/marketing savvy brother, he is ‘working it’. But really why not? I feel he is not putting dangerous information out there, he is saving people alot of money from Vet bills, but always advocates seeing the vet where neccessary. He has lost so much, I dont blame him for trying to make a living at this – I support him! I understand fully why his colleges would be upset – he is successful, and a threat to all the extra $ they get for apppointments and treatments that are not helping. I would never suggest someone to not see a vet if it is serious, and I dont believe he does either. I think he has alot of guts to do what he is doing – the simple and financially secure thing to do would be contiuing on in his practice and not going through all of this to help animals with chronic skin issues etc. His family would have been alot richer and safer, had he opted to just keep using those drugs that he knows are not really curing the problem.
It looks as though you really have it out for these guys, but who are you anyway? You are making all these accusations under what name? Annonymous!!! I feel that is pretty cheap and disrespectful, espescially as you are doing your best to tarnish the reputation of others. I would like to see you expose yourself, then stand behind your allegations – who knows, you may get more credit for being serious.
I am glad I was refered to this site, by someone I respect and trust greatly. Sad to see you are spending so much energy and time on dis-crediting Dr Jones and Dr Londsdale. I wish you the best, and hope you grow less bitter,
Zoe McGovern
Nelson, BC
I support Dr Andrew Jones!!! My beautiful black Persian was a victim of mainstream veterinary medicine last year…I will never know if he could have been saved…but IMHO, if I had known Dr Jones before a notorious local veterinary hospital ripped him out of my arms and euthanized him, him might very well be alive and well today and I wouldn’t have spent hundreds of dollars unnecessarily!!! Thank goodness I did meet Dr Jones and with his very knowledgeable alternative care, my other cat is still alive and thriving in better health than ever because of him!!! Shame on YOU for perpetuating these lies about Dr Jones. Come out from behind your anonymity and face reality…Big Pharma is not our friend…in veterinary medicine or human medicine…and neither are YOU!
I really find your blog quite upsetting… I agree with the other comments supporting Dr Jones.. There are many many natural remedies that are equal to if not better than conventional medicines. In fact some things are routinely given to dogs that have been withdrawn from Human use because of the dangerous side effects. The German medical profession routinely prescribe natural alternatives . Why you have to be so anti is very unfair, and abhorrent. More like large companies likely to lose revenue pulling strings on the veterinary regulatory body .. There is no profit in healthy animals…
“Real debate requires actually listeninga nd considering what someone else says, and the ability to learn requires the ability to listen to what others say even when they disagree with you, and not to turn disagreements into personal attacks”
(especially when you know nothing about the person you are attacking!).
I could not agree more, you should learn from your own words !!!
Try listening and learning from alternative or complimentary!
I think what has happen to Dr A Jones is disgusting and does your profession more harm than good.
I say if you don’t believe do what you are doing and leave others alone who believe in natural remedies rather than putting other drugs in their systems. Why do you care. it just irritate me when people go against the grain they get persecuted. leave the doctor alone.
Well put, ladies and gentlemen; those of you who mightily defend Dr. Andrew Jones! For years, I have been aware that in general, the mainstream medical community is suspect. Drs. are practicing medicine…wait! Practicing means one doesn’t have it perfected yet! I WILL NEVER accept conventional medical nor veterinary treatment or diagnosis blindly ever again. Big PHARMA has the vast majority in the array of medical and veterinary professions, as well as the general public at large, completely snowed!!! Big Pharma and its understudy, the FDA, are, in my opinion, Gadianton Robbers!!! Thankfully, there are individuals with. the ethics of wanting to live with their conscience, such as Dr. Jones, even at the cost of their livelihood. This blogger, is a dolt! Of course Dr. Jones is going to continue to try to make a living promoting his book. Wouldn’t you? DUH!!! You, blogger, talk a big talk, but the minute you sided with chemically medicating, you lose credibility…BIG TIME. Oh, and btw, the informed public is growing wiser. We are increasing on number. We are becoming less and less gullible and believing that doctors and vets are ‘GOD’. We question; we research online; we think things through, and then we act on OUR OWN JUDGMENT! We have our own agency to do so, after all. We are sick of the FDA. Speaking for myself, (though I suspect I’m not alone), when I learn the FDA has approved something, I choose to run in the opposing direction! TRUST YOUR GUT!!! I rest my case.
The truth matters. We may disagree about what it is, but the idea that somehow I shouldn’t say what I believe is true just because you don’t want to hear it is closed-minded and indefensible.
It amazes me that all of Dr. Jones’ supporters complain about my critizing him as if he were some kind of religious icon who should be immune from doubt. For a group of self-professed independant thinkers and mavericks, you sure don’t like other people having the nerve to doubt you or your heroes. And everyone assumes they know all about my practices as a vet and my motives as a person, even though none of you know anything about me. There is no substance, no factual argument, no research, no evidence here. All I see in these responses is personal attacks against a fantasy enemy you’ve made up in your heads, a cult of personality venerated the uncriticizable hero, and a paranoid conspiracy theory involving the government, the pharmaceutical industry, and any veterinarian who dares to say that some kinds of medicine work and others don’t.
It feels utterly embarrassing to read the comments from Jones’ blinded supporters. Such vitriol and judgment without basis or merit. On the other hand, their comments serve a purpose to show just how gullible, mad and religiously fanatic and that followers of quacks tend to be.
These are just the same old arguments, from both sides, that have been going on for years and years. It’s completely pointless because no one is going to convince someone from ‘the other side’. However as I’ve nothing better to do, here are my two cents worth, a couple of points I don’t think anyone has brought up yet:
The two things I find incredible about everyone who thinks vets are just in it for the money (the vast, huge salaries we know they all make):
1) If we were really only interested in money, we would never ever vaccinate! Or implement any other form of preventative health care – we certainly wouldn’t neuter. Imagine! The epidemics of parvo, distemper and lepto – so many animals needing drips and aggressive i.v. antibiotics! So much valuable, intensive nursing needed – the client’s bills would be huuuuge. And if we never neutered animals, within 10 years the amount of money we’d be making from emergency spays to remove pyos, and mammary strips…….ooooh £££ the riches!
I can promise you, anti-vet fanatics, the real money lies in treating the diseases that results from NOT vaccinating or implementing other conventional preventative healthcare.
2) Everyone seems to ignore the fact that animal life-expectancies, just as with human’s, keep on increasing. That is a fact. What exactly is the reason for this? I suppose it’s happening in SPITE of evil Big Pharma etc.
Just so we’re clear: I’m glad Dr Jones got struck off. He’s hardly the first vet to be interested in alternate and complementary therapies, but the way he’s treated his former colleagues in the profession is pretty disgusting. And since he is so against conventional medicine, I’m only surprised he didn’t disassociate himself from ties to The Evil Profession sooner.
HI… I will ALWAYS believe in Dr Jones. What he is doing is right! My dog uses his supplement and she is thriving. She NO longer has any shots…I got her as a rescue a few years ago. An 8yr old black lab, that had ear infections every year and she hasnt had an ear infection since I changed her diet and added his supplements to her diet..
Also, when I got her she had heart worms and I WOULD NOT go with arsenic injections.( In central Maine the treatment starts at $500.00 and it goes higher the further south you go) I figured out what to do myself. I found Chinese herbs and they worked and not just with her either. A friend’s dog in Colorado had heart worms and they used the Chinese herbs too…and guess what….free from heart worms too! I went to a new vet to have her re tested after a month of taking the herbs and the vet could have cared less that she was heart worm free after using the herbs… Gee… I wonder why! I will NEVER go back to her.
I had another black lab years ago ( over 20 yrs ago) and she had chronic skin problems and ear infections all her life. Oh ya…steroids were really a great treatment…just a cover up. Too bad we didnt have internet back then… DIET is the key…and you cant tell me vets didnt know that back then???? The sad part about this vet is that he is still practicing. I have heard of many other complaints about him.
Skep vet …you are truly pathetic and I think all the negative posts about Dr Jones are done by you. I dont know what YOUR problem is…BUT get your head out the sand pile!
It always amazes me how people who are so confident in themselves that they cannot imagine their interpretation of events being mistaken can also get so wound up at anyone else having the nerve to disagree with them. You are free to believe what you like, but thankfully others are free to disagree no matter how loudly and self-righteously you shout at them.
I would just like to say that Dr. Jones is only providing information that has been used as well as available for many, many years, but today’s world of medicine has made sure we are unaware of those holistic approaches that might actually work and save people money. (A generous amount) It is ridiculous that people spend so much time bashing one guy who may want to help people save their pets as well as their money. The money making for him is NOT guaranteed as it is for other vets.
What’s ridiculous is the conspiracy theory nonsense that the vast majority of veterinarians are suppressing cheap and effective therapies and that people like Dr. Jones are somehow selfless altruists just trying to help people. There isn’t a vet out there who would be doing what they do if they only cared about money and didn’t care about pets and people, because they could certainly make more money using their knowledge and skills in other ways. And the idea that because Dr. Jones makes his money by selling things through books and the internet he is somehow more noble than vets who make theirs by seeing patients in the clinic is equally ridiculous. Such conspiracy theories and complaints about money are just vacuous ecuses for not dealing with the real issues of how we determine which therapies really work and which don’t.
Hi there, I can appreciate your concern, but I find the approach of the article to be of a vicious nature. Also, after visiting Dr. Jones’ site, I have only noticed the normal/typical trend of own personal opinions displayed by many others in the field and advocacy for people who have hit the wall in dealing with their pets health conventionally. I did not see any discrediting of other vets. I won’t take sides, but I’ve had some experience throughout my life where I feel alternative or “folk-medicine” has helped where pharmaceutical and conventional/modern treatment has failed my pets. My family came from the “Old Country” in the 1920s. They/we always had pets (dogs and cats). We were generally poor so we only knew what we learned from the “old-country” (aka Cuba) and our pets usually lived a lot longer than the standard 15 years without common disorders like diabetes, obesity, thyroid issues, etc. Maybe your experience has been different? And that’s fine. I recently have had to rely on conventional veterinary medicine in rescuing a very sick cat from the local pound. I spent thousands of dollars at eight (that’s right 8) different conventional and honest vets (they all were recommended by trustworthy people). After a year of my miserable, malnutritioned cat only getting worse, losing weight, unable to keep food down, etc., I tried alternative methods out of desperation and my cat stopped all symptoms immediately (and this is without a vet, just my own intuition). I stopped all prescription food, vet visits, tests, x-rays, etc. and started with fresh whole poultry from my local supermarket and a pinch of sage on top of each meal – he’s on his 6th year of healthy digestion, sage no longer required. One time, I also spent a lot of money on getting him treated for a simple UTI by my very trusted conventional vet and I highly recommend him (Dr. Diaz in Brooklyn, NY) who genuinely cared for my cat and all of his patients. (People come from all over the tri-state-area to see him; yes he’s that good!) However, it was my personal TCM practitioner who gave me an herbal mixture to give my cat, it surprised me and I was skeptical at first (after all, she’s not a vet!); but, I had been back and forth with my cat to our vet for over a month and I was stressing poor kitty in doing so (which I feel contributed to him not healing), so I took a chance on my TCM practitioner’s little herbal mix and cured my cat in one week, for $5. However, this is just my lucky experience. I know that all vets are not out for the money, I know many, including a very close friend of mine, who genuinely care, even more than some owners! With that said, I have done my research and I do see that the typical vet has been trained by the pharmaceutical companies. I would not say that you are not knowledgeable in your profession, but calling someone a liar does not help you look reliable. Especially to people like myself who have turned to alternative methods and succeeded when conventional medicine has failed. I’m not blasting conventional medicine because it can save your pets life, but I don’t think a professional should behave in such a manner as this. Sorry.
Skeptvet,
I admire your passion for an evidence based approach to health care and animal welfare. Many of the comments here have been hijacked through promotion of this page on Dr Jones’ site.
Your point on animal pain is extremely important. While people are free to do what they want to themselves, animal pain and disease is difficult to recognise because they can’t express their feelings. This is the reason that the study of veterinary science is so complex and knowledge in this field doubles every five years. It is quite amazing how veterinarians are able to save and improve the quality of life of animals suffering from diseases ranging from cancer to fractured bones. Evidence based medicine has been the basis of these advancements. Alternative medicines when used instead of a properly diagnosed and evidence based approach can cause animal suffering.
Thanks for the support!
Holistic Medicine has saved the life of our dog.
The only help our conventional vet offered was Vanectyl Vanectyl Vanectyl and of course allergy shots, colitis medication and Atopica and frequent visits to his office to re-prescribe the above medications.
He rejected home cooked foods and supplements and ONLY suggested the BAGGED food that he stocked in his office which is Medi-Cal and Hills Science Diet.
After spending thousands of dollars on testing, blood work, specialist fees, prescription medication etc, etc, etc, etc.
We made the choice to go to a holistic vet,
after TWO weeks our dog was recovering!
She is now off all medications
is on a home cooked diet with supplements
and is in the best shape of her life getting better everyday.
AND
We have saved money,
which is important in our family
like in every other family –
this is NOT a bad thing.
Is not a bad thing that a veterinarian is espousing cost saving measures and rejecting medicating dogs, and pushing bagged food that our dog was very allergic to.
I respectfully submit to you that from a business point of view, bottom line type of discussion that it might just be easier for conventional veterinarians to vilify their holistic colleagues as “Quacks.”
People who do not “toe the conventional line” are often labeled so.
But we their ever grateful holistic customers, say, “Thank you!”
But in turn, I challenge you to think outside the box, turn your back on conventional thinking in veterinary medicine and join the rest of us on the other side.
You just might like it
🙂
Miracle stories are a dime a dozen. As inspiring as they are to some, they don’t actually prove anything. The same kind of stories “prove” that bloodletting, Lourdes water, ritual sacrifice, and a thousand other things are miracle cures. Believing such stories for thousands of years, we did a lousy job of improving our health. Learning to trust science instead has improved our health and longevity so dramatically in a mere couple of centuries, it warrant viewing such parables with great skepticism.
I understand the concept of science very well.
That is my background.
Holistic medicine, miracles and such are science too, just in a different form, that which you are not familiar with or refuse to become familiar with obviously.
That is sad really, I almost feel bad for you but of course you would never allow anyone to feel bad for you that is clear!
The one component of science that we should be taught is that science appears in many forms not just in test tubes and research labs.
I personally know many pets owners who pets have been saved after rejecting the “Vanectyl Carousel.”
As a customer I will never appreciate nor accept the arrogance of science claiming that only they have the answers to everything because that is just not so!
I respect that you have decided to appear:
>>to choose test tubes as evidence to back up your claims only.
>>that your practice is set up this way and that this is the only choice your provide to your customers.
However I do not respect that you:
>>set up a blog and appear to so self righteously bash other veterinarians.
>>appear to disparage pet owners and other veterinarians who ask for choice in the care of their pets.
>>appear to laugh at them and think that they are ridiculous?
This is how you come across and this is such a bad business model to follow
as anyone in business would tell you!
But I guess that is why we will never be your customer and contribute to the overhead of your practice
😉
Sorry, but you don’t get to just declare whatever you belive to be “science too.” What you believe, with or without evidence, is beyond question or criticism, and yet you accuse me of arrogance? Perhaps your background does not include the concept of irony?
I had not seen this particalar thread until last night (whilst delving into the Skeptvet archives) and was both shocked, dismayed and, yet, profoundly amused by the rantings of Dr. Jones’ minions. Is there any wonder that such an irrational, unfounded and fringe-minded demographic would follow and fall for the actions of a world class woo-meister? And, vice versa? I am forever amazed at the fallibility and gullibility of the human mind but equally saddened for those who simply don’t get it.
I have become an active — almost obsessive — reader of SBM, Orac, Skeptvet and a few other blogs this past year, ever since a class mate and distant colleague of mine started going woo on me. It’s as if he’s died and I’m stunned by the turn of events (he’s a brilliant surgeon).
But, I’ll admit; although I can’t save my friend, I have greatly improved my own practice of medince — and my interaction with my clients — due, in whole, to the pragmatisim, pure science and adherence to the truth that is promoted in the above noted blogs. And, for that, I thank you, the Dr’s at SBM, Orac and a host of others for your “service” to the truth and your “battle” of the woo.
Funny, Al, despite my “adherence to the evidence of test tubes” and my “laughing at the fringe”, my business model of truth, hard work and curing my patients’ illnesses is a practical model that will ensure a lifetime of success, satisfaction and sleep-filled nights. And, in the end, I might make some money (shame!).
PS — Al: clients add to a practice’s bottomline, not overhead. Although, with that said, I might consider you little more than an electric bill or county ordinance violation. ciao!
Thanks for the support. One expects criticism to generate hostility, but it’s nice to be reminded that the work we do is useful o some people.
A minion? – I don’t even know Dr. Jones??
Gosh you and your supporters really have it in for this guy
That is so obvious??
OH yes LOL
how big of you to accept criticism
Good for You!
and
you quipping me about business practices
and
science
LOL
We are all actually laughing uproariously here
(what an arrogant person you are, it’s astounding really!)
Well, that’s ok with us,
we are all happy “not” to contribute to your continuing success
and sense of being useful
I really wish you good luck!
I wish your supporters luck too, honestly go for it!
However, we can only hope that one day, you offer choice to your clients
so that their pets can be as happy and healthy as our pets are now,
who are finally off the:
bagged food,
yearly vaccinations,
Vanectyl etc, etc,slash, other dubious medication,
weekly big vet bill,
monthly specialist bill,
more medication
carousel
that never ends.
🙂
Al
Just so you know, Al,
Big Herb Company, Big Supplement Company, Big Hype Dog Food Company, Big Hype Alternative/Holistic/Woo Vet Clinic, all have the same goals, also at your inconvenient expense, probably even moreso. Except without one bit of evidence to support that they’re handing out and charging you for your pet(s) is any better than conventional medicine.
“Holistic medicine, miracles and such are science too-” they are anything but science, they are faith-based, and based on notions of eons ago – they didn’t work then, they don’t work now. If you believe they work, fine. But if you’re going to state to others they work, and if you’re going to ogle a vet who is showing you proof they don’t work, then put up your own proof, no one is stopping you.
Our dog has been saved – I understand that you do not believe me.
It is not my intention to put up a blog and save the entire world or put down either side.
We wanted to save the life of our pet we looked for other alternatives and found some and they worked and started to work within two weeks.
Our dog is so much better, she is actually eating and gaining weight not vomiting or having any bouts of diarrhea at all. She is sleeping and not scratching, all her fur has grown back she is running around and playing like a dog should.
Best of all she is not suffering all the time anymore and this is what was so awful for the whole family – her terrible suffering.
So knock holistic all you want – it worked for us
That is the important fact that I wanted to share with you and your supporters.
Al,
I’m assuming your dog has allergies or a skin condition, but because you didn’t have any “luck” with one vet, this begs further questions.
You mentioned testing, so, what type of testing? Any skin scrapes? Any cultures? Any specific allergy testing?
You mentioned blood work, so, what type of blood work? Any indication of bacterial vs viral vs fungal etc?
I suspect your vet offered you to try a hypoallergenic diet, which is a common and oftentimes helpful approach to allergens, whether they be food related, or environmental. Speaking of environmental, was that ruled out? (spring and fall for example, pollens, grass and weed seeds, etc).
Many patients respond well to Atopica, but if you weren’t willing to give this time, including a food trial, or any other medication for that matter, you can’t expect that holistic provided a better outcome since your dog was already on conventional-prescribed medications, which is most likely the reason your dog magically responded after two weeks of holistic care. It wasn’t necessarily the holistic care that “healed” your dog, see?
Sometimes, there are cases so extreme that it may require a specialized home-prepared diet, but if you go that route, please make sure you have a board-certified vet nutritionist consulting you. That said, home-cooked diet and supplements (again, you never stated what those so-called magical supplements were/are), may or may not be the sole reason for your dog’s healing. Tincture of time may have allowed those conventional medications time to do their job, are you willing to accept that as equally as your home-cooked diet and supplements?
Did you ever do a process of elimination? Again, I suspect that was what your vet wanted to approach with you had you given it a chance. Whenever a new food trial is approached, one has to expect up to 6-8 weeks or more for a response, along with ruling out other potential offenders. Did you give that approach a fair try?
Your statement that you saved money: Of course you did, after your first vet performed all of the necessary lab work, testing, medical approaches – your holistic vet had all of that work done prior by another vet so his job was a great deal easier, don’t you think? So often, that is the case with a holistic vet as a second opinion vet. The holistic vet gets all the credit for work done by a previous vet and the owner attributes success to whatever mundane approach the holistic vet takes.
Had you presented your dog to a holistic vet first – if that vet had any common sense – would also recommend testing, lab work, blood work, potential allergy testing, so your costs would pretty much be the same and probably more so.
The way you’ve presented your “case” is purely anecdotal. So, unless you have specific evidence that what your first vet approached was not in the least successful, you can’t claim entirely that the holistic vet cured your dog. Nor should you expect your holistic vet to be able to miraculously cure your dog for any other ailment using unproven, untested, methods or that which is not really “effective” medicine. Additionally, most clients who put their holistic vets on a pedestal, eventually end up with the conventional vet whenever their pet has a serious condition or medical emergency, since the holistic vet hasn’t truly approached the “effective” side of medicine (here is where your “carousel” of ineffective treatment and high costs also comes in).
I had a dog that was scratching herself a lot. I tried Dr. Jones’ powder. I had to mix it with canned dog food. Then my other dogs wanted the canned dog food, so I thought, “Maybe I should just feed her canned dog food instead of the powder.” After all, Dr. Jones used to harp about changing to canned dog food. That didn’t help either. Then I started feeding salami, pepperoni, bologna, etc. to my dogs instead because I didn’t want so many tin cans around. That didn’t help either. Then I did a search on the internet and came up with another place which had a wafer, which was similar. For this one I didn’t have to mix it with food; I just gave it to the dog. It had natural ingredients, no drugs. At first Elsie seemed to improve. I ended up giving her 3 wafers a day. I wrote to the company about her not getting better and they advised cutting out canned dog food that contained wheat and corn and processed meats. Anyway, she died July 20, 2012. She was 11 1/2 years old. The last two months of her life her stomach was big. It looked just as if she was going to have pups, an impossibility because she was spayed a long time ago. Anyway, the day before she died, one of my other dogs was vigorously smelling Elsie’s rear end and Elsie smelled like a rotting carcass. Other than that, she seemed happy. Her stomach was very big and the rest of her seemed kind of thin.
The other day I looked on Dr. Jones’ blog and he had an article about “bloat”. None of it sounded like what Elsie had. I phoned the company where I was getting the supplement to cancel the auto-ship. They sent me a card in the mail, expressing their condolences about Elsie’s death. The company’s supplement is formulated by several vets and pharmacists. It only has a silhouette of a dog on it’s product.
When I was talking to the girl at the company, I was describing Elsie’s symptoms before she died, and she replied, “I’m not a veterinarian.”
There are other online veterinarians. I found a web site where it is a husband-wife team. They are both veterinarians and they will diagnose the pet online, using video chat and prescribe and sell the medicine.
I also read about Vitamin C. In one case a doctor treated a dog that had distemper by giving it massive doses of vitamin C and the dog recovered.
I’ve read that large doses of vitamin C will cure just about everything (speaking about people’s diseases). In fact one of Dr. Jones’ cures was vitamin C. I was going to try that but someone told me that dogs make their own vitamin C. Maybe sometimes dogs don’t make enough vitamin C.
If I ever have a sick dog again, I think I’d try vitamin C. Another one of my dogs, Skippy, died a year ago. He had an infected claw. I couldn’t take him to the vet. A new claw grew back in. He kept on licking it. I supposed a vet would have removed the claw.
In future I think I’d try vitamin C if I ever have a sick dog again, because it helped me with what I had this summer, which the doctor’s prescription didn’t help a bit.
Obviously, yours is a sad story, and I’m sorry you had to go through this. I can’t help wonder, though, whether you took your pet to see a veterinarian and followed their recommendations. One of the big problems with Dr. Jones is that he suggests you can fix your pets’ health problems by randomly experimenting with things on your own rather than seeing a doctor. While many problems go away on their own, so you can often get away with this strategy, serious disease requires careful diagnostics and proper treatment, and without this there is certain to be unecessary suffering. Haphazardly switching foods or supplements isn’t going to help and is very likely to hurt your pets. I would encourage you to seek veterinary care if your pets are ill. And if this care isn’t something you can afford, it may not be fair to own pets when you cannot afford proper care for them.
Wow, that’s all I can say.
I found myself reading this website after yet another frustrating experience at the veterinarian. I started looking around to see if other people had noticed the “up selling” going on at animal hospitals, and found Dr. Jones’ website. I also wanted to see what other people were saying about Dr. Jones, and ended up here. While I have no real opinion of Dr. Jones at this point, I couldn’t help but notice how hypocritical Skeptvet sounds in some of his responses, for example: “It always amazes me how people who are so confident in themselves that they cannot imagine their interpretation of events being mistaken can also get so wound up at anyone else having the nerve to disagree with them. You are free to believe what you like, but thankfully others are free to disagree no matter how loudly and self-righteously you shout at them.” Ironically, Dr. Jones is one who has had the nerve to disagree with the existing veterinary establishment, and consequently, people like Skeptvet are getting “wound up”.
I, for one, am very interested in doing whatever it takes to keep my pet happy and healthy, but every time I go to the vet, I feel as though I am being taken to the cleaners. Often, much of what I am told goes against common sense, yet I am faced with enormous pressure from vets and techs to follow through with these outrageously expensive procedures, and any hesitation I exhibit results in some very unprofessional attitudes from them. I refused a $250 X-Ray that seemed excessive under the circumstances, and the vet tech got snappy with me, then I got a lot of attitude from the vet. Then, when I called back to ask about some new symptoms, I got the cold shoulder and a lot of “Well, I guess you should have gotten that X-Ray. Now you’re going to have to take her to the ER because we’re closed. ”
This is in line with other treatment I have received from other vets in the past, so I am beginning to develop a distrust of veterinarians. A couple years ago, this same cat (who was the picture of perfect health in the past), started coughing in a strange way so I took her in. They told me she had asthma and prescribed her steroids and a bunch of other stuff that cost a fortune. I was giving her 4 pills a day. On the second day of treatment, she had a seizure. This cat had never ever had a seizure before. I freaked out and took her to Emergency. They couldn’t figure it out, but said there was no way the meds were causing the seizures. I think I walked out of there with a $400 bill and was told to keep her on the meds. The cat had another seizure. I took her back to the ER. I was told she needed to see a cat neurologist. $$$$$$ I refused to do that, and agonized over whether to disregard the vet’s advice and pull her off the medication. I was in tears. This was my beloved friend, I thought she was close to death. So I had long conversations with other family members (also with extensive experience raising animals) and all unanimously agreed to take her off the meds. I stopped giving her everything. 24 hours later she was completely normal and her symptoms have not recurred.
As a result of these types of experiences, I’m now wary of veterinarians, just like auto mechanics. What’s best for the pet and the owner, it seems, is beginning to become second priority to what is best for the veterinary practice. I don’t know if Dr. Jones is the scheister some people make him out to be, but I read one of his articles and honestly, his points did not seem like quackery. He certainly doesn’t seem mainstream, but if vets who make smug “I told you so” comments to distressed, worried pet owners are what it means to be mainstream, maybe that’s not a bad thing.