72 responses

  1. Lauras
    September 16, 2018

    You clearly have not read the Univ of Wa Study on this topic. Please read and try again.

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      September 17, 2018

      Sorry, you have to work harder than that. If there is relevant evidence I haven’t seen, I am happy t look at it and even change my mind, but you’ll need to share the study and explain why you think it leads to a different conclusion than the evidence I have discussed.

      Reply

      • Deb
        September 23, 2018

        The study referred to by the reader above was done by a dr researcher at the university of Washington. I believe his name is Dr. Lai. He used artemisinin on a canine with osteosarcoma and had good results, with the dog still alive 2 yrs later. That is amazing considering the severity of this bone cancer and the speed at which it progresses. My dog was just diagnosed with this same disease and I am giving her 200mg twice a day.

        Reply

      • skeptvet
        September 24, 2018

        See, this is why the details matter. There are no published clinical studies of artemesinin in dogs with osteosarcoma, which is what would be needed to show it is a safe and effective treatment. There is a study showing artemesinin affects canine osteosarcoma cells in a test tube, but that is a far cry from a real-world use. Bleach kills cancer cells in a test tube too, but it is hardly a safe cancer treatment.

        Dr. Lai has been quoted in some alternative medicine magazine articles saying that he knows of a dog with OSA treated with artemesinin that got better, but this is an anecdote, not a study. Haphazard “try-it-and-see” anecdotes are not scientific studies, and they don’t prove anything. Real research may soemday show this is a useful drug for this disease, but so far the evidence isn’t there.

        Reply

  2. David
    September 18, 2018

    I do appreciate your thoughts, but honestly when someone is desperate they turn to traditional and non-traditional methods, only the outcome determines whether it is quackery, regardless of the method. There are a huge numbers of malpractice everyday by qualified traditionalist. I don’t believe people want to stray from mainstream, but they have been let down and and disenchanted by some of the outcomes. Was it the quackery that lead people astray or the greed with the same end results? The Flexner Report was the catalyst for the mess that has become our insurance(corporate greed) managed medical system in this country. IMHO That was the beginning of people becoming disenchanted.
    So, if I’m dying and modern medicine can’t resolve and they offer me a 10% chance for $100K and someone tells me for $10 I can eat cat turds and have a chance to live, the end state is still the same . All we need to determine is who is the quack.
    The system is broken.

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      September 19, 2018

      You are confusing two issues–the inadequacies in the healthcare system and the way we decide which therapies work and which don’t. The healthcare system is a mess, no question. However, scientific research is still the most reliable way to tell which therapies work, and those based on history, tradition, anecdote, or just pure faith are very unlikely to help. The flaws in mainstream healthcare don’t have anything to do with this and don’t make it any better for people to seek out quack therapies, even if it understandable why they do.

      And when you say “only the outcome determines whether it is quackery,” you express a common but dangerous misconception about what evidence and “proof” is. Bloodletting was always quackery and did only harm to patients, never good. The fact that plenty of patients treated by bloodletting got better anyway, and that this led people to believe it was effective, didn’t make it any less of a quack therapy. The same is true for homeopathy and many others that have been proven useless, and it is likely true for many alternative therapies that haven’t yet been fully tested. Our personal observations just aren’t worth much in terms of assessing the value of medical treatment because reality is much more complicated than our simplistic way of thinking that “I did X and got better so X must have worked.”

      The other side of this is that desperate people shouldn’t be lied to or given false hope. And it is a mistake to believe that grasping at straws, even when you have a terrible disease, can’t make you any worse. Even people dying of pancreatic cancer, which science-based medicine can’t treat very effectively, live shorter and more uncomfortable lives when given the Gonzalez Protocol ( a classic quack therapy). Instead of accepting the inevitable and being kept comfortable, these people died chasing false hope and being put through unnecessary discomfort. Ignoring science makes people’s lives worse even though science, and the system we use to turn it into medical care, is far from perfect.

      Reply

  3. Crystal S Hare
    October 23, 2018

    My 4 year old Pyr was dx with osteosarcoma in her left front leg. We amputated including shoulder blade and lymph node, with no chemo or radiation. It is post 1 month and I was considering using the artemisinin plus bioperine just as a possible preventative for the likelihood this disease is going to continue to spread. We want to get the most quality time we can. Any thoughts, or am I just searching for the “magic” bullet?

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      October 24, 2018

      Unfortunately, the truth is no one knows because this kind of use hasn’t been properly tested, so it’s a bit of a roll of the dice. My fear with reaching for untested remedies is that there is always the possibility we can make our pets feel worse for the time they have left, but for some the risk and uncertainty are worth tolerating, so it has to be your call.

      Good luck!

      Reply

  4. Michelle Daws
    November 11, 2018

    Treatment of Iron-Loaded Veterinary Sarcoma by Artemisia annua
    Breuer E, Efferth T. Treatment of Iron-Loaded Veterinary Sarcoma by Artemisia annua. Nat Prod Bioprospect. 2014;4(2):113-8.
    MLA Breuer, Elmar and Thomas Efferth. “Treatment of Iron-Loaded Veterinary Sarcoma by Artemisia annua” Natural products and bioprospecting vol. 4,2 (2014): 113-8.
    APA Breuer, E., & Efferth, T. (2014). Treatment of Iron-Loaded Veterinary Sarcoma by Artemisia annua. Natural products and bioprospecting, 4(2), 113-8.
    Download as: RISNBIBJSON
    Elmar Breuer and Thomas

    Artemisia annuaL. preparations (Luparte®) were obtained from Lupovet GmbH (Müllheim/Baden, Germany)

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      November 11, 2018

      Case reports with no control group, blinding, randomization, statistical comparison, or any other control for bias and error. These are useful in generating a hypothesis to be tested, but this kind of study can never prove efficacy for any treatment.

      Reply

  5. Sally Hardy
    January 4, 2019

    My dog, a big Rottie was diagnosed with osteosarcoma 2 years ago. He takes 300 mgs of Artemisinin a day for 5 days a week. He also takes immune mushroom pills, Black seed oil, salmon oil, and turmeric pills every day twice a day. Also takes liquid Hemp Rx oil. With a diet of high immune boosting foods. His site was on lower right foot and didn’t change much or become painful until this past August. Had the leg amputated and at that time saw no signs of metastasis. His oncologist is wonderful and I feel so Blessed to have had him for this length of time. I have to believe that these drugs have had a large impact on his recovery and longevity. So many people have been skeptic but he he was only 5 yrs when diagnosed and I knew I had to fight for him. I’m a believer in this. Good luck to all who are going through this.

    Reply

  6. Dave Munn
    July 8, 2021

    My 13 yr old collie has a malignant Melanoma on his front lower leg. I was guided to try Artemisinin as an application on the tumour to see if the cells reduced. Success has been noted previously by reputable Holistic vets on dogs.
    Has anyone specific views on this, please?

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      July 8, 2021

      Well, to begin with “reputable” and “holistic” don’t really go together since, unfortunately, “holistic” is usually a code word fro using unproven or ineffective therapies.

      As far as the artemisinin, the evidence is reviewed in this article, and there isn’t any reliable reason to believe it will help. Anecdotes are not reliable evidence, so the best thing you can do for your dog is consult a board-certified veterinary oncologist for science-based options.

      Here is more on the problems with anecdotes_

      Lots of reasons why anecdotes like this aren’t reliable and don’t actually tell us if therapies work or not:

      Why Anecdotes Can’t be Trusted

      Anmecdote

      Reply

  7. Brian Wermeyer
    October 6, 2021

    Hello @Mary. I just ran across these posts and am wondering how things worked out with the artemisinin.

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      October 6, 2021

      Still not much clarity. A large number of in vitro and animal model studies and a few pilot trials have been done since 2014 which continue to sho promising results. However, there are still no convincing clinical trials showing significant benefits in real patients, human or companion animal. One retrospective study in pets suggested some survival benefit, but such studies are much more prone to error than prospective designs, so this is pretty limited evidence. Evidence in humans and in dogs has also shown some small problems with bioavailability and toxicity, so the risk/benefit balance of clinical use isn’t yet clear.

      Reply

  8. Brian Wermeyer
    October 7, 2021

    Thanks for your reply. I was hoping to get a response from Mary. I have been searching for more information on it’s usage. I know there are no clinical trials. Most of the stuff I’ve found it just speculation, so I discount that.

    I’ve found a couple of human doctors that are using it to treat their patients.

    https://drceaser.com/therapies/iv-therapies/iv-artemisinin/

    Dr. Ceaser has not replied to my email in spite of the fact that I have supplied him with a ton of data on my dog.

    I’ve found this human doctor as well.

    https://integrativehealthcarespringfieldmo.com/artemisinin-iv-therapy-alternative-cancer-treatment-springfield-missouri/

    I’ve yet to contact her.

    I do not have good knowledge of biochemistry, actually none at all. I am thinking HBOT followed by IV Artemisinin. From what I’ve read the real challenge is getting a response from the hypoxic tumor cells. These guys don’t respond well to radiation therapy because of the low oxygen. I’m thinking an HBOT treatment might add enough oxygen to them for there to be a reaction to the Artemisinin. We did HBOT for my dog when he underwent stereotactic RT.

    I’ve reached out to Henry Lai and sent all of the data on my dog. His current research interest is in low frequency EMF and Artemisinin. We’ve been using PEMF on my dog and it has been most effective. We just can’t stop new tumors from popping up.

    I am realistic. I just want to keep the quality of my dog’s life as high as possible.

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      October 8, 2021

      All reasonable hypotheses, none proven to actually be true. It’s fair to look for plausible but unproven treatments when there is nothing clearly demonstrated to work, but I always have to caution people that lack of conclusive evidence for efficacy also means lack of conclusive evidence for safety. Anything that has real physiologic effects, such as high tissue concentrations of oxygen, for example, can do harm as well as provide benefits, so it’s always a roll of the dice. Again, sometimes rolling the dice makes sense, but sometimes we do it out of fear or desperation and end up making things worse, so it’s a decision to be taken carefully. Good luck!

      Reply

  9. Brian Wermeyer
    October 8, 2021

    First off, I am not desperate. My dog is extremely stable and lives a very high quality of life. Nothing that has been “done to him” is dangerous. My dog has already had 5 HBOT treatments, three of them just before SRT.

    No harm has ever been done to my dog and no harm will ever be done to him. He is not a lab rat and will never be treated as such. I don’t work off of hypotheses and won’t do something to my dog based on a hypothesis, conjecture or speculation.

    I am looking for information on in vivo treatments that have been shown to have some positive affect on tumors. Statistics speak louder to me than hypothetical BS. I am probably just about as much of a skeptic about things as you are. 🙂

    Reply

    • skeptvet
      October 8, 2021

      My point, which you don’t seem to appreciate, is that without robust clinical research evidence, you don’t know that HBOT or PEMF doesn’t or can’t cause harm; you just assume it. People took Vitamin E for years assuming it was safe and might be beneficial as an antioxidant, and then research showed it increased the risk of certain cancers. Harm is not always grossly evident immediately, and some risks are only understood with data on many patients. Oxygen toxicity and various other potential adverse effects of HBOT do exist, and following the course of only one case it is impossible to know if the treatment improved or worsened the eventual outcome. The same is true for any treatment with scant clinical research evidence to support it. You may be skeptically minded, but you are actively pursuing treatments with little to no clinical research evidence in the target population (e.g. dogs with cancer), and you refuse to recognizer that there may be potential risks involved. Whether or not it is the appropriate thing to do is up to you, but not even recognizing the potential for harm suggests your view of these therapies is not very balanced or evidence-based.

      Reply

  10. skeptvet
    September 7, 2018

    You make some valid points, but you are also mistaken on several points:
    1. scientific studies can be worthless- This is absolutely true. No single study proves or disproves everything, and conclusions must always be proportional to the strength of the evidence. Consistent findings from good quality studies over time are highly reliable. Findings from single studies that contradict well-established knowledge are highly likely to be wrong.
    We also have well-established criteria for judging the risk o bias and error in research studies. We can often identify those in which we should have low levels of confidence. However, the fact that some studies are poorly done or mistaken doesn’t change the fact that controlled research is still more reliable than uncontrolled personal observation and experience.

    2. Lots of anecdotes cannot be dismissed by a scientific study- Yes, in fact, they can. Thousands of years of anecdote-based belief in the value of bloodletting as a medical therapy were quite definitively shown to be wrong by only a small amount of research evidence. Anecdotes are THAT unreliable.

    3. It is arrogant for scientists to dismiss anecdotes- Nope. It is simply an acknowledgement of their low worth. Anecdotes should, as you say, be used only to generate testable hypotheses. They do nothing at all to prove or disprove those hypotheses, and it is not arrogant to say so. What is more, relying on the evidence rather than personal experience is a manifestation of humility and an awareness of our personal limitations. What is arrogant is to believe one’s personal experience can or should trump real data.

    I find the term “arrogant” is often code for “a judgement I don’t like,” and that seems to fit your usage here.

    4. You have nothing to lose- Complete bollocks. Unproven and insufficiently tested remedies harm and kill patients, and grasping at straws without real evidence is dangerous.

    Reply

  11. David
    September 18, 2018

    A lot of patients die everyday with “proven” methods. If there is indeed a better way to address these diseases , why has it not been discovered and establish she’d as protocol. People generally turn the less traditional methods because they have lost faith in the traditional ones.

    Reply

  12. skeptvet
    September 18, 2018

    Sure, but the fact that people grasp at alternative therapies out of desperation when there is no proven effective treatment doesn’t mean those therapies work. And it is wrong to abuse this desperation by selling quackery.

    Reply

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